[sathyab]

Both Red, partner opens 1c, RHO overcalls 1s. You find a pass with xxx xx Kxxxx K9x. Over LHo's 2s, partner now bids 4h, pass by RHO. Your call now. And of course this is MP, the second day of Werner Open Pairs, probably a no-brainer at IMPs to bid clubs or perhaps even cue-bid 4s in support of clubs.

[gnasher]

5♣. There's too much risk of 4♥ being forced off.

To consider any stronger move, I'd need ♦A at least.

[andy_h]

agree with gnasher

[benlessard]

5C. Its a no-brainer. I partner had hearts that are playable vs a doubleton and a 5-6 he should open 1H even if hes strong enough to reverse. 4H here show more like a 5-7

[mcphee]

While it is possible we can take 12 tricks playing C I can not see a logical bid which lets us investigate slam. I can not agree that if partner holds 5H and 6C they should open 1H when holding reverse values. I also think had partner bid 3H over 2S they would be 5-6, and never 6-4 where bidding 2N makes sense. I would consider 3H from partner to be F to at least 4C or more remote 3N.

[benlessard]

Quote

I can not agree that if partner holds 5H and 6C they should open 1H when holding reverse values.

Lets say you have

x
AQJTx
A
KJTxxx

You open 1C and the bidding come back to you at 4S (quite likely) what do you do ?

As long as the H suit is solid enought that a low doubleton is ok i suggest to open 1H. With S you can afford to open the long minor but with H you have to be careful.

[the hog]

benlessard, on Jul 25 2008, 08:03 PM, said:

Quote

I can not agree that if partner holds 5H and 6C they should open 1H when holding reverse values.

Lets say you have

x
AQJTx
A
KJTxxx

You open 1C and the bidding come back to you at 4S (quite likely) what do you do ?

As long as the H suit is solid enought that a low doubleton is ok i suggest to open 1H. With S you can afford to open the long minor but with H you have to be careful.

About the first post of Ben's that I totally agree with.
The other alternative with this hand would be to bid 4NT - playable in C and D or H.

[bid_em_up]

Partner is willing to bid a vulnerable game opposite a hand that can be broke and a total misfit.

I would be forced to bid 5C on xxxx x xxxxx xxx and this hand is a LOT better than this.

Put me down for 6C.

[Apollo81]

I think it's still a no brainer to try to play in clubs. I'd cue 4♠.

[mikeh]

The_Hog, on Jul 25 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

benlessard, on Jul 25 2008, 08:03 PM, said:

Quote

I can not agree that if partner holds 5H and 6C they should open 1H when holding reverse values.

Lets say you have

x
AQJTx
A
KJTxxx

You open 1C and the bidding come back to you at 4S (quite likely) what do you do ?

As long as the H suit is solid enought that a low doubleton is ok i suggest to open 1H. With S you can afford to open the long minor but with H you have to be careful.

About the first post of Ben's that I totally agree with.
The other alternative with this hand would be to bid 4NT - playable in C and D or H.

I don't: I think it is losing bridge to distort shape.

For Ben's careful and low frequency 5=6 hand, let's give partner 2=2 in your suits, and you open 1♥ and rebid (I assume, else what's the point?) 5♣.

Ding, ding, ding!!! How is partner supposed to know if you are 6=5 or 5=6 or 6=6? Answer: he can't. So he, like a dumb ox, bids 5♥ on his 2=2.

So you do not gain anything.

With 1=5=1=6 and a good hand, having opened 1♣ and now facing 4♠, we can bid 4N.. partner will bid 5♣ unless he prefers BOTH reds to clubs... if he bids 5♦, we know that he is happy(ish) with hearts more than clubs. That is the way to bid intelligently.. there is no need to distort shape.

[gnasher]

mikeh, on Jul 25 2008, 04:26 PM, said:

For Ben's careful and low frequency 5=6 hand, let's give partner 2=2 in your suits, and you open 1♥ and rebid (I assume, else what's the point?) 5♣.

Ding, ding, ding!!! How is partner supposed to know if you are 6=5 or 5=6 or 6=6? Answer: he can't. So he, like a dumb ox, bids 5♥ on his 2=2.

I imagine that having opened 1♥ with 5-6 and had the bidding come back at 4♠, one would bid 4NT to show a longer minor.

That sequence leaves us slightly better placed: when responder is something like 4522, a 1♥ opening gets us to hearts and a 1♣ opening doesn't. When responder is, say, 4324, both openings get you to 5♣.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on Jul 25 2008, 10:38 AM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 25 2008, 04:26 PM, said:

For Ben's careful and low frequency 5=6 hand, let's give partner 2=2 in your suits, and you open 1♥ and rebid (I assume, else what's the point?) 5♣.

Ding, ding, ding!!! How is partner supposed to know if you are 6=5 or 5=6 or 6=6? Answer: he can't. So he, like a dumb ox, bids 5♥ on his 2=2.

I imagine that having opened 1♥ with 5-6 and had the bidding come back at 4♠, one would bid 4NT to show a longer minor.

That sequence leaves us slightly better placed: when responder is something like 4522, a 1♥ opening gets us to hearts and a 1♣ opening doesn't. When responder is, say, 4324, both openings get you to 5♣.

Two points: it may be better to reserve 4N for hands with a side minor but a significantly longer heart suit: 7-5 for example.

Obviously this is low frequency, but then the entire scenario is low frequency

And that brings me to my second point. Why on earth would we design our bidding style in fear of a 4♠ overcall??????

In the meantime, we have to utterly distort our hand. Count me out. Now, if YOUR opps routinely overcall 4♠ a significant percentage of the time, I have two suggestions. One, play penalty doubles.. the odds are they don't have their values Two, if they are always making, then adopt Ben's approach.

[FrancesHinden]

Well, yes, except for those of us who like to use 4NT to show 2+ card discrepancy (e.g. 7-4).

I would open 1C as well on a 1516 because I hate distorting shape.

This is an auction on which partner has a tendency to overbid. He did have 3H available to show a very good hand with clubs and hearts, but instead he's bid 4H which should be huge. Every time I have seen this auction (not that many times) partner has not had his bid.

We could easily have slam on. Partner might have x AKxxx - AQJ10xxx.
I'm bidding 5C, but I think I am very maximum for my action.

[sathyab]

As I mentioned right at the outset, if it were at IMPs passing 4♥ would be out of the question and from the replies so far, nobody has even contemplated it at MP either. Slam bidding in competitive auctions at MP is rare enough that I don't worry about it as much, focusing instead on getting to the best scoring MP game.

So let's think of hands where game is the limit. In this set, how do you distinguish between hands where most of the values are concentrated in the two suits, as opposed to hands which have mixed values.

1) xx AKQxx void AQJxxx

2) void KQTxx Ax AQJxxx

If ♥s broke 4-2 you'd make ten tricks on (1) and one more if they broke 3-3. Would you bid (1) differently from (2) and a whole lot of other hands which offer better play in clubs ? Should you bother bidding them differently at MP perhaps ? Over 2♠, you could have bid 2nt, correcting partner's 3♣ to 4♥ which could show a hand different from another that bid 4♥ directly. Yes, I realize there's a danger of opponents bidding 4♠ over 2nt.

[gnasher]

mikeh, on Jul 25 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

Two points: it may be better to reserve 4N for hands with a side minor but a significantly longer heart suit: 7-5 for example.

And after 1♣ (4♠) pass (pass), you might want to reserve 4NT for hands with a side red suit but a significantly longer club suit.

The two situations aren't completely symmetrical, but if you want to be able to show five hearts and six clubs after your chosen opening bid and a 4♠ overcall, you're going to have to give up a 4NT bid, and the cost of doing so is similar regardless of what you opened.

Quote

And that brings me to my second point. Why on earth would we design our bidding style in fear of a 4♠ overcall??????

That's a better argument, though if I may say so it would have been even better without the superfluous punctuation.

Here is a better argument still: if we take the hand quoted by Ben as a 1♥ opener and put it opposite a hand similar to the one originally posted, we get:

---

In which game would you like to play these two hands?

[benlessard]

Quote

In which game would you like to play these two hands?

5C but i doesnt mean that i wont reach it.

1H-----(2S)------pass---------(pass)

Here most have a way to show better clubs than H or to show 5-5 with so so hearts. Also for each hand where you are 32 and clubs play better than heart youre going to have 2 hand 2-2, 2-3 or 3-3 where 4H play better than 5C.

If the opponents dont overcall spades then I agree that ill reach some 4H instead of 5C but trust me i dont expect it to happen.

[mikeh]

benlessard, on Jul 25 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

Quote

In which game would you like to play these two hands?

5C but i doesnt mean that i wont reach it.

1H-----(2S)------pass---------(pass)

Here most have a way to show better clubs than H or to show 5-5 with so so hearts. Also for each hand where you are 32 and clubs play better than heart youre going to have 2 hand 2-2, 2-3 or 3-3 where 4H play better than 5C.

If the opponents dont overcall spades then I agree that ill reach some 4H instead of 5C but trust me i dont expect it to happen.

I can't help it.... I have to ask,,, how do you show longer clubs than hearts? I've played bridge for a long, long time and I don't know how to do this

[benlessard]

Our partnership default is good bad applies when game is still possible and that scrambling or shape shwoing 2nt(3Nt) applies when game is unlikely.

Our 2nd rules say that the direct bid show that the 2nd color is stronger then the first and that the Nt bid show 6-4 or 5-5 with first suit stronger.

1S--------Pass-------(pass)-------2H
3m show better m then S.

2Nt show 6-4 or 55 with bad 2nd suit

After an overcall at the 1 level and partner pass we assume that game is unlikely.

If partner pass a weak JS overcall than game is still possible so its good-bad 2Nt

When more space is available you can even show that the 2nd is longer than the first (if 2nt,3nt & 4nt are artificial)

When extreme shape you have to leave your noble principles at home and be practical.

1C-------(come back to you at 4D)

does 4M show 6-4 7-4 types of hands ? or does it show 6-5 type. No need to tell you that the 6-4 7-4 are much much more frequent. To solve this problems some make a neg X but ask responder to bid the cheapest 4 card suit. So that with
6S & 4H you respond 4H. I think its a poor solution since when you X with the (34)06 or (34)15 your might play in the bad major.

My suggested solution is that 4M show a good 4 card suit or a so-so 5 card suit. Same goes at the 3 level.

1m-----(3Y)-------pass------(pass)
???

3M here could show a 4 card suit. If you double instead you risk partner passing or bid 4 in the wrong suit.

Its an advantageous trade off, you treat the rare 5-6 where the 5 card suit is good like a 6-6 so that when you make a force high reverse you are showing more frequent 46 type (good 4 carder & medium 5 carder).

[cherdano]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 25 2008, 09:47 AM, said:

Well, yes, except for those of us who like to use 4NT to show 2+ card discrepancy (e.g. 7-4).

I would open 1C as well on a 1516 because I hate distorting shape.

This is an auction on which partner has a tendency to overbid. He did have 3H available to show a very good hand with clubs and hearts, but instead he's bid 4H which should be huge. Every time I have seen this auction (not that many times) partner has not had his bid.

We could easily have slam on. Partner might have x AKxxx - AQJ10xxx.
I'm bidding 5C, but I think I am very maximum for my action.

Maybe your partners disagree on how much 4♥ shows? I think the hand you give is a supermax for 4♥, normal would be a 4-loser hand. I remember Fred giving as a rule that the distributional hand should play partner for a modest fit and one useful card, though I don't remember the exact auction. This is about what I have, so I am not tempted to bid 5♣ (even though I agree partner could have the hand you give above).

[benlessard]

With a 4 losers and partner providing 1 cover you are still down at 5m.