[Poky]

IMP. We vul.

3♣ pass pass 3♠
pass 4♣

What does it show 4♣?

[benlessard]

a maximum raise to 4S

[TylerE]

Absent furthur discussion I'd expect it to be a club control with spade fit and slam interest. e.g. A hand not quite good enough to risk 3N over 3♣, and unsuited for double.

Maybe somehting along the lines of:

Kxxx
x
AKxx
ATxx

or something like that.

Another possible interpretation is that it is a 'good raise' to 4. Take the above hand without the A♦, for instance.

[rogerclee]

Good raise to 4♠, says nothing about clubs.

[kfay]

rogerclee, on Jul 28 2008, 04:37 PM, said:

Good raise to 4♠, says nothing about clubs.

Agree.

[jillybean]

kfay, on Jul 29 2008, 07:37 AM, said:

rogerclee, on Jul 28 2008, 04:37 PM, said:

Good raise to 4♠, says nothing about clubs.

Agree.

Yep

[SoTired]

strong hand, only 3-card spade support

[gnasher]

Playing this as some kind of spade raise is probably normal, but it seems rather pointless.

I can't imagine bidding slam after this start, so it serves no constructive purpose. If the opponents were going to save they would probably have done so already; if they save over 4♠, we're still better off than the people in the other room, where our teammate raised to the five level on the first round.

I think it should show 2-5 in the majors and offer a choice of games.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Jul 29 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

I think it should show 2-5 in the majors and offer a choice of games.

This is what I think it should mean in theory, but without a discussed general partnership principle in that direction (which I have occasionally had before) then I think it's normal to just assume partner is raising spades.

[benlessard]

Quote

I think it should show 2-5 in the majors and offer a choice of games.

If you want a bid for that (i think you should) than use 4H and keep 4C for the S raise. COG bids tend to be less slammish than strong raise hands so you should put them where they take less bidding space.

[jdonn]

benlessard, on Jul 29 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

Quote

I think it should show 2-5 in the majors and offer a choice of games.

If you want a bid for that (i think you should) than use 4H and keep 4C for the S raise. COG bids tend to be less slammish than strong raise hands so you should put them where they take less bidding space.

Do I even have to ask the obvious question? .......
Well there are actually two. What if we have long hearts and why are we looking for slam after 3♣ P P 3♠?

[benlessard]

Quote

What if we have long hearts and why are we looking for slam after 3♣ P P 3♠?

Show me a hand without S tolerance too weak to overcall 3H but strong enough to bid 4H over 3S.

And of course slam is possible.

KQx
Axxxx
Ax
xxx

Maybe you like to bid over 3C with that but not me. When partner balanced at 3S surely I need a way to show a great raise instead of just a raise.

[jdonn]

benlessard, on Jul 29 2008, 08:00 PM, said:

Show me a hand without S tolerance too weak to overcall 3H but strong enough to bid 4H over 3S.

x KQTxxxx Qxx xx? I sure wouldn't bid over 3♣. In fact why not weak with an 8 card suit? Why not spade tolerance with 6 good hearts instead of 5 any-hearts where you don't want partner to pull so quickly?

Quote

And of course slam is possible.

I agree. So why do you think slam being possible is a good reason to need to look for it? Slam is possible after the opponents open 1NT as well, but I don't believe I have any bids to investigate. Also do you think you are bidding those slams accurately? For example bidding slam if partner has AJTxxx KQx xxx x but not going beyond 4 if partner has AJTxxx xxx KQx x, or not bidding slam if his small club is the ace?

I do agree almost all bridge players would take 4♣ as a spade raise in practice. I'm saying it's pointless, since you have many (15? 25? more?) times more hands where you need to search for the best game, and since there isn't room for accurate slam bidding. It's only a spade raise by default since that's what cuebids generally are after overcalls.

[andy_h]

interesting.. 2-5 in the majors, sounds kinda neat

[benlessard]

Quote

I do agree almost all bridge players would take 4♣ as a spade raise in practice. I'm saying it's pointless, since you have many (15? 25? more?) times more hands where you need to search for the best game, and since there isn't room for accurate slam bidding. It's only a spade raise by default since that's what cuebids generally are after overcalls.

I think the opposite, that slam are way more likely than COG hands. Hands without fit should probably pass and hands with playing strenght despite being low on HCP should bid 3H.

Quote

x KQTxxxx Qxx xx

I agree that its the perfect hand to passing and bid 4H (if that doesnt show S tol).

If you think that slams bids for situation when its going to be hard anyway to bids slams accuratly have little value. What is the value a game/COG bid that is essentially a shot in the dark like passing and bidding 4H ?
Also I dont think that passing 3S or bidding a direct 3H are that much inferior to pass and bid 4H. So the gain you make by playing 4C as somewhat H+ S tol and passing and bidding 4H later to show long H with no S you are aiming at a very small target and this target is way way smaller than slam possibility.