[Poky]

1♣ Dbl 1♦ 1♥
pa 1NT

What is the range of 1NT and why?

[brianshark]

19-21 or so, because with 15-18 he would have overcalled 1NT directly.

[mike777]

At first I was going to say around 19...but pard bid 1h free......so..........why not just bid 3nt?

A guess and only a guess is p still has 19 hcp but does not trust your free bids.

[gnasher]

Still 19-21. A 1♥ bid doesn't show very much - ♥KJxx and nothing else is enough.

[mike777]

ok i guess 1h free bid shows 3433 and 4 total pts now?


xxx..Kjxx...xxx....xxx

[gwnn]

mike777, on Jul 24 2008, 02:00 PM, said:

ok i guess 1h free bid shows 3433 and 4 total pts now?


xxx..Kjxx...xxx....xxx

yep

[mike777]

gwnn, on Jul 24 2008, 07:10 AM, said:

mike777, on Jul 24 2008, 02:00 PM, said:

ok i guess 1h free bid shows 3433 and 4 total pts now?


xxx..Kjxx...xxx....xxx

yep

If this is a 1h expert free bid ok, I feel old.

[FrancesHinden]

mike777, on Jul 24 2008, 09:57 AM, said:

At first I was going to say around 19...but pard bid 1h free......so..........why not just bid 3nt?

A guess and only a guess is p still has 19 hcp but does not trust your free bids.

It still shows a hand too strong for an original 1NT overcall (a good 18 plus)

Partner is not obliged to jump to 3NT over 1H just because your side has the values for game. It's possible that you have a better contract available, and you have lots of room to find it.

[the hog]

mike777, on Jul 24 2008, 07:00 PM, said:

ok i guess 1h free bid shows 3433 and 4 total pts now?


xxx..Kjxx...xxx....xxx

Yes I would bid 1H with this Mike, if just for the lead.

[mike777]

1) yes as I said my guess was correct, around 19 and they do not trust your freebid.
2) I wondered how long someone would wait to say for the lead.....

[gnasher]

mike777, on Jul 24 2008, 02:57 PM, said:

1) yes as I said my guess was correct, around 19 and they do not trust your freebid.

By "not trust your freebid", you seem to mean "not trust you to bid like I do". My partners would expect a 1♥ bid on the hand I gave, so no breach of trust would exist.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Jul 24 2008, 08:57 AM, said:

1) yes as I said my guess was correct, around 19 and they do not trust your freebid.
2) I wondered how long someone would wait to say for the lead.....

Bidding 1N to show 19-20 hcp has nothing... I repeat, nothing.. to do with the strength of the 1♥ call. Indeed, had partner bid 2♥, constructive, 2N would have been 19-20.

The meaning of 1N arises as a consequence of standard takeout double/notrump overcall structure. We do not usually double with a 13 count with flat shape and values in their suits (if we do, we surely do not rebid 1N over a minimum advance.. we pass).

If we open the bidding, we need the 1N rebid to show a balanced minimum, but we don't need the 1N rebid for that purpose after we double. When we open, reponder is unlimited by his 1-level response, which is forcing.

When we double, partner's 1 level response is not even constructive... it is weak.

So our 1N rebids will logically be stronger, not weaker, than our 1N overcalls.

[Trinidad]

mike777, on Jul 24 2008, 03:57 AM, said:

At first I was going to say around 19...but pard bid 1h free......so..........why not just bid 3nt?

A guess and only a guess is p still has 19 hcp but does not trust your free bids.

The point is that when the 1NT bidder doubled 1♣, he didn't know how the auction would proceed. Sure, his partner could respond with a free 1♥ bid, but it could also be a forced 1♥ bid after LHO passed. The doubler needs to be able to handle that.

That means that the double shows, as always, either
1) an opening hand with support for diamonds, hearts and spades and short in clubs
2) a hand too strong to overcall in a suit (say 17+ HCPs, according to taste)
3) a hand too strong to overcall 1NT (18/19+, according to taste)

Weak NT type hands basically pass, unless they happen to fall into category 1).

The strategy with minimum hands is that you pass any response that partner makes, unless it is invitational or forcing. 1♥ wasn't invitational and certainly not forcing. That means that the doubler cannot have category 1) when he rebid 1NT. He must have category 2)

There are three reasons why one wouldn't rebid 3NT with an 18-20 point balanced hand:
- Why would you bid 3NT, if you can bid 1NT? Perhaps the doubler has three hearts and 4♥ could be a better contract than 3NT.
- 18 opposite a voluntary bid is not enough to force to game on a misfit.
- The bid of 3NT is needed as 'to play', usually based on a good diamond or club suit and a decent hand. It is hard to show an excellent diamond overcall after LHO bid 1♦. The same is true for an excellent club overcall.

Finally, since the doubler says that he can handle a forced response of 1♥, you can (should!) make free bids relatively freely. You cannot go overboard by bidding 1♥ on xxx/KJxx/xxx/xxx, as long as the doubler doesn't do anything rash. After all, he would have forced you to bid 1♥ on xxx/xxx/xx/xxxxx. Now certainly, on that last hand your side may get into trouble, but with about 4 hcps more than you could have and a reasonable suit, you shouldn't get into any trouble at all.

Rik

[blackshoe]

mikeh, on Jul 24 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

We do not usually double with a 13 count with flat shape and values in their suits (if we do, we surely do not rebid 1N over a minimum advance.. we pass).

We don't usually double with that hand, but some do — and they bid 1NT on the second round. This used to be alertable in North America, but so many people were doing it, the ACBL made it not alertable. I dunno about other jurisdictions.

The real problem is that players who bid this way don't disclose it.

[ArtK78]

blackshoe, on Jul 24 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 24 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

We do not usually double with a 13 count with flat shape and values in their suits (if we do, we surely do not rebid 1N over a minimum advance.. we pass).

We don't usually double with that hand, but some do — and they bid 1NT on the second round. This used to be alertable in North America, but so many people were doing it, the ACBL made it not alertable. I dunno about other jurisdictions.

The real problem is that players who bid this way don't disclose it.

This reminds me of my early days of playing bridge.

One of the first bridge clubs that I ever played in was located at the Jewish Community Center in my hometown. Many of the players there had been playing for years without ever getting beyond the rank of novice.

I learned early on that they would make takeout doubles with cards in the opponent's suit and short suits outside. Whenever they did that and their partner bid their short suit, they would bid notrump. So, an auction would go like this:

(1♥) - x - (P) - 1♠
(P) - 1NT* - (P) - 2♠**
(P) - 2NT** - ....

*Pard, I don't like your suit.
**But you made a takeout double and I have 5 spades!
***Pard, I really don't like your suit.

The notrump bids never promised any extras.

I referred to these bids as the "JCC notrump."