Ethical?
#1
Posted 2008-July-25, 13:28
Michael and Debbie Rosenberg were playing a close match in the Spingold Knockout Teams against the Ladyzhensky team.
The Rosenbergs were playing against Doug Simson and Walter Johnson. There was a failure to Alert by the Rosenbergs that resulted in a poor result for Simson-Johnson. The tournament director called to the table ruled in the Rosenbergs’ favor, but Michael didn’t agree with the decision, and the teams agreed that the score should be adjusted.
The opponents praised Rosenberg for his ethics in the case.
What do you think?
#2
Posted 2008-July-25, 13:54
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
Posted 2008-July-25, 14:06
Without knowing more details it would seem improper to me for players to change the result. Essentially they would be deliberately submitting an inaccurate score. On the surface this would seem highly unethical to me.
Did the director agree with the proposed new score? Or was this change done without reference to the director?
The proper process for overturning a director's ruling is to have an appeal or perhaps a chief director's review of the director's ruling.
Possibly not or at least less likely in a knockout match but in other form's of scoring agreeing a result not actually obtained at the table or but a proper director's ruling would be open to abuse. "I know we bid and made 6S here but lets change it to 4S because I think I hesitated (and we are not in contention and you are)" - I am not suggesting anything like this occurred but it sets a very dangerous precedent if things are not done properly and seen to be done properly.
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#4
Posted 2008-July-25, 15:01
- It is not possible to comment on the propriety of Rosenberg's action without knowing the facts.
- MR is well known for a fairly strict approach to hesitation, MI, etc cases when he is a committee member (see any NABC appeals casebook commentary). WIth the implied facts, he is being consistent.
- The Bulletin edtor should publish the full details or not at all.
#5
Posted 2008-July-25, 15:03
#6
Posted 2008-July-26, 09:20
There is a correction in today's bulletin... they were wrong, initially, on about 4 counts.
#7
Posted 2008-July-26, 13:39
#8
Posted 2008-July-26, 13:56
Is it ethical to do what Debbie has done here? Most certainly! A good example of active ethics.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#9
Posted 2008-July-28, 03:27
If you disagree with a TD's ruling, the correct procedure is to appeal it, not to agree on a different ruling between yourselves. It is admirable to appeal a ruling that was in your favour.
As a TD (or a referee), even if the two teams told me a suggested ruling that they were both agreed on, although it would be helpful input, I would not necessarily actually give that ruling. Here are three reasons why I might not (in descending order of how likely it is that I would not give the ruling they have agreed on):
1. It is wrong or misguided on a point of law or regulation (e.g. they have overlooked or misunderstood split and/or weighted adjusted scores)
2. It is wrong on a point of analysis: for example, there has been MI and declarer says "if I'd know that RHO had shown {this holding} I would have played differently and made the contract", and looking at the hands I see that playing differently would have gained one trick but not enough to make the contract
3. I disagree on what calls are demonstrably suggested by a piece of UI.
I admit that (2) is unlikely if Michael Rosenberg is involved, but that's the principle.
#10
Posted 2008-July-28, 10:36
#11
Posted 2008-July-28, 17:50
Maybe it saved an appeal, maybe it didn't, maybe it just made his dinner more palatable, maybe he was being especially ethical. I appreciate it.
#12 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-July-28, 18:21
FrancesHinden, on Jul 28 2008, 04:27 AM, said:
Seriously? I would not admire someone who did this lol.
#13
Posted 2008-July-28, 21:56
TD's have given rulings before, and many players have heard the ruling, the logic, and then said something like: "BUT did you KNOW the opps play Flannery?" or something else logically relevant to a particular deal not mentioned earlier...
...IF that or other comment might provide a new slant, I have seen TDs revise their ruling. Maybe FINAL is after dinner break commences, or time-related only?
That being said, i would think someone in MRosenbreg's position could tell the TD about something like a systemic alert issue, and the TD could revise (if appropriate) what might have seemed like their FINAL ruling. This would surely make more sense than accepting the ruling IN ONE'S FAVOR and taking it to AC to get it revised (to be ethical.)
#14
Posted 2008-July-28, 23:12
Law 81C said:
irregularities and redressing damage. The Director’s duties and powers
normally include also the following:
1. to maintain discipline and to ensure the orderly progress of the game.
2. to administer and interpret these Laws and to advise the players of
their rights and responsibilities thereunder.
3. to rectify an error or irregularity of which he becomes aware in any
manner, within the correction period established in accordance with Law
79C.
Law 79C said:
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#15
Posted 2008-July-28, 23:44
#16
Posted 2008-July-29, 12:11
Once the appeal gets to the committee, practice in the ACBL is to toss the table ruling and start over. Most (all?) of the rest of the world, including the WBF, disagrees with this, and says that the table ruling exists, and is to be reviewed by the committee, and upheld or revised as necessary. Although I'm in North America, I agree with the rest of the world.
An AC decision may itself be appealed, in theory, but the ACBL in particular reserves to the LC or C&C, as appropriate, the decision whether to hear the further appeal. So in practice, most of the time, the AC's decision is the final one.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#17
Posted 2008-July-29, 12:33
#18
Posted 2008-July-29, 14:23
However, I don't feel that the reverse should be true. Living with a director's ruling can never be construed as "unethical".
Practice Goodwill and Active Ethics
Director "Please"!
#19
Posted 2008-August-04, 03:37
The original issue was a hesitation double taken out to a making 3NT. We agreed that it was correct to adjust to 3♦X, the interesting part was how many tricks that would be taken. 3♦X would make on any other lead than a trump, but a trump-lead would take it 1 down. While a trump-lead was somehow marked we were not convinced the opening leader would always find it. This was also based partly on the fact that the opening leader was not a top expert (unlike the other defender) and that they were the offending side. We agreed on a §12C3 ruling of 50% of 3♦X making and 50% of 1 down (since there was an offending side this translates to expecting a trump-lead around 2 of 3 times). As an aside, in ACBL where 12C3 is not used, we would have adjusted to 100% of 3♦X making.
When this ruling was presented at the table, Thomas Charlsen (a very ethical player who has represented Norway on several occasions) refused to be given this adjustment. He said the opponents trump-lead was obvious and argued that his side should score only 100% of 3♦X down 1. The table TD accepted this and amended our original ruling (no discussion about appealing from any sides).
John
#20 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-August-04, 07:54