[gwnn]

A
AKJxxx
Jx
QTxx

unfavorable Pairs, against OK opps.

1♥-(2♦)-3♠*-(5♦)

*fit jump

should pass be forcing? what do you bid?

[skjaeran]

The normal way of playig fit jumps is that they set up a forcing pass below trumps at the level the jump forces to.

That is, a pass should be forcing below 4♥ here, but not above.

Obviously, this is something each partnership has to agree upon.

[gwnn]

oops sorry Harald I forgot to add the second question. what do you bid?

[benlessard]

Clear FP situation for me. With no defense partner should just bid 4H and forget about bidding 3S.

Extra length and strenght make pass easy on this hand.

[gnasher]

I prefer not to play a forcing pass in this sort of auction, because I don't think the fit jump should promise lots of high cards.

I'd double, because opposite KQxxx Q10xx x xxx we're probably beating 5♦. Any table that isn't in 5♦ is irrelevant.

If I played the fit jump as promising more defence, and therefore pass as forcing, I'd probably pass - the same hand with ♣A would make 5♥ cold, with 800 against 5♦ doubtful. At any other vulnerability, or at IMPs, I'd double.

[Edmunte1]

It's important in your partnership to define ownership.
Ownership = That level above that opponents cannot play undoubled. Above that level a competitive force exists.

For me:
- A simple support never estabilishes ownership
- A mixed raise (FJS included) - estabilishes a FP up to the level implied by the jump (in your example up to 4♥, but no above) and 4M is the weakest bid
- An invitational raise (3-4 card fit) sets up a FP at 5 level
- Any inv+ bid, not necesary fit bids sets up a FP at 5 level

I think, the most important thing, when you define ownership is to avoid any possible double swing. So if you define too many FP positions, like in the example, you'll have to double too often making games.

In IMP's i'll pass, and hope to chalk up a plus score.

[benlessard]

Quote

- A mixed raise (FJS included) - estabilishes a FP up to the level implied by the jump (in your example up to 4♥, but no above)

I dont understand the logic of this. By a passed hand i understand that the FJS can be weakish and not GF (to find thin game) But by and unpassed hand a FJS should show some slam potential. I mean the whole point of FJS by an unpassed hand is to find thin slam on double fit how can you be willing to lets them play a undoubled cheap save when initially slam was in the picture. IMO bidding FJS just to help partner compete or not at the 5 level is clearly unsound, it will help opps to spot double fit as much as its going to help partner + it allow opps an extra level of bidding.

1H----2D-----3S (FJS)

Bidding 3S here with little defensives values and a lot of distribution is IMO atrocious. The correct bid with shapely hand with good offensive potential is a plain 4H, you will missed some perfecto slam that you would have bid if you've had bid 3S, but its nothing compare to the imps youre going to lose because youve allowed LHO to bid 4C or 4D so that will find a cheap save or the good lead.

[rogerclee]

Easy double.

[Edmunte1]

Ben, the main reason for playing fit jumps is to make the partner the boss of the action and to be able to take a good decision in a competitive battle, where you're not in position to do it.
Briefly, 3♠ in the previous example means: i have a good offensive raise to 4 ♥ and i'd like you to know that i have a good spade secondary suit. That implies the next logic that stands behind the 3♠ bid: from my point of view a ♦ preempt is possible, and you should be able to work out to pass/double/overbid 5♥, knowing that i have a good spade suit and a good offensive hand(HHxxx Hxxx x xxx is the minimum hand for this bid). So there's a temporary sacrifice a high card definition. I agree that you can sometimes reach slam using FJS, but it's not a main tool for slam bidding (it consums too many bidding space). But holding a stronger hand you'll move second time after you made the FJS. When i'm saying that FJS estabilishes a FP up to the level implied by the jump means that for example we cannot let our opponents to play 4♦ (or any other contract inferior to 4♥).

[FrancesHinden]

benlessard, on Jul 22 2008, 08:13 AM, said:

But by and unpassed hand a FJS should show some slam potential. I mean the whole point of FJS by an unpassed hand is to find thin slam on double fit how can you be willing to lets them play a undoubled cheap save when initially slam was in the picture. IMO bidding FJS just to help partner compete or not at the 5 level is clearly unsound, it will help opps to spot double fit as much as its going to help partner + it allow opps an extra level of bidding.

I disagree with this assumption.

The point of a FJS by an unpassed hand is to help partner judge the level of the auction. It's not about bidding possible slams, it's about the more important play-or-defend question.

[lexlogan]

I would certainly double if I thought that would encourage partner to lead a spade. I visualize grabbing the Ace of spades, returning my highest heart spot to partner's presumed Queen, and our collecting two or three more spade tricks (possibly including a ruff.) On a heart lead, we may collect only two defensive tricks unless partner has something in clubs or diamonds. 5D might also make if one of the opps has a heart void. The heart Queen in declarer's hand might be a problem; in dummy, we'll see it and partner is likely to have a side entry we can find.

Offensively, partner needs controls in the minors for us to make anything, in which case we may collect 800 for the double.

From Robson & Segal's examples, if memory serves, I don't think we can count on partner to have side strength, so I don't think 3S is forcing beyond 4H. As my double suggests a misfit for spades, I'll go with it and trust partner to lead a spade, not a heart.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

usually fit jumps dont set up a forcing pass.
If I recall it correctly Robson-Segal make the forcing pass
yes / no decision depend on the level and the vulnerability,
and red vs. green a fit jumps creates a forcing pass at the
5 level.

But to answer your question
#1 no
#2 X

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 22 2008, 03:36 PM, said:

The point of a FJS by an unpassed hand is to help partner judge the level of the auction. It's not about bidding possible slams, it's about the more important play-or-defend question.

Me too.

[gnasher]

lexlogan, on Jul 22 2008, 03:44 PM, said:

From Robson & Segal's examples, if memory serves, I don't think we can count on partner to have side strength

P_Marlowe, on Jul 22 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

If I recall it correctly Robson-Segal make the forcing pass
yes / no decision depend on the level and the vulnerability,
and red vs. green a fit jumps creates a forcing pass at the
5 level.

I don't think we should rely on a 15-year old book, published when fit bids of this type were a fairly new idea, for the best rules to apply. I doubt if either Robson or Segal has exactly the same agreements about these auctions now as they did then, so there's no reason for the rest of us to either.

[benlessard]

Quote

I don't think we should rely on a 15-year old book, published when fit bids of this type were a fairly new idea, for the best rules to apply. I doubt if either Robson or Segal has exactly the same agreements about these auctions now as they did then, so there's no reason for the rest of us to either.

IMO one of many thing in that book that i dont like is they dont make the distinction of FJS that allow space for the opponents and FJS that dont.

1S-----X-----4H(FJS)
1S-----2D----4H (FJS)

1S-----X------4C (FJS)
1S-----2D----4C (FJS)
are not the same thing at all.

In the first example 4H to help you know what to do over 5m is honorable.
But in the 2nd it doesnt make any sense.

1- It LHO to make a kind of responsive double.
2- It allow lho to bid 4 red to suggest a sacrifice over 4S. (they are W)
3- It allow lho to make a lead directing bid ( they are red)
4- It allow lho to bid 4H followed by 5D.
5- it allow lho to bid 5red and make a cue bid at 5C.

The notion of helping partner make the last decision is pointless if it help opps make the last decision more often then it help your side.

[gnasher]

benlessard, on Jul 22 2008, 05:29 PM, said:

1S-----X------4C (FJS)
1S-----2D----4C (FJS)

[..]

The notion of helping partner make the last decision is pointless if it help opps make the last decision more often then it help your side.

Strangely enough, those of us who sometimes make a 4♣ fit bid in these auctions do so on hands where we think it will help partner more than it helps opponents.

[benlessard]

Quote

Strangely enough, those of us who sometimes make a 4♣ fit bid in these auctions do so on hands where we think it will help partner more than it helps opponents.

And how do you manage to know if it going to help partner more often then opps. I understand that when LHO as an easy raise then partner partner is likely to have to make the last guess so helping him is nice. But when you dont know LHO has an easy raise why help him raise ?

Ive checked some of the example in the book.

A Q 7 4 3
K J 6 4
7
J 6 5

or

A Q 7 4 3
Q
K J 7 5
J 6 5

facing


K J 6 5
10 5 2
A Q 10 9 2
4

1S-----(3C)------4D

This is a text book example. 4trumps and a 5 or 6 card side suit, shortness in their suit (so that LHO will probably raise). Pts combined in the 2 suits a very ODR ratio. Just the perfect strenght. Make south hand a bit stronger and its slammish so you can afford to play slammish FJS with FP over it. Make the hand a bit lighter and making a FJS will only help the opponent find their slam or find a very cheap save. Also if the hand is lighter than there is a good chance that the save theyll make is a phantom.

It doesnt get any better than this. We have enough strenght that 5 over 5 is a real possibility but not enough to consider 4D a slam try (and to setup forcing pass). South has enough strength to know that his 4D will not encourage opps to bid 6 over 5.

But even with these perfect hand im not convinced that in practice 4D will turn out much better then a plain 4S.

4S will buy you the contract at the 4 level more often.
4S will avoid some nasty lead directing bids.
4S induce opps into making some phantom saves from times to times.

Here is another example, this 1 i find hilarious.


making a FJS with

10 9 6 5 3
J 5 2
K Q 10 9 2
-

Its should be called how to help opponents find their slams or their 6 level saves another good title would be... How to be the only one to get a H lead and go down.