[TylerE]

♠J83
♥T73
♦AKQT4
♣Q9

♠K65
♥KQJ6
♦52
♣A652

Plan the play in 3NT on a 4♠ lead.

Contract is 3NT. LHO doubuled your 1!C opening for takeout, and you ended up in 3NT with no more bidding from opps.

[Hanoi5]

♠J and then hearts.

[TylerE]

RHO covers the J with Q.

[Hanoi5]

Then I win and play hearts.

[TylerE]

They win the A and run 4 more spade tricks,

[kenrexford]

Sticking in the spade 8 works. If you catch LHO with A109xx, win the Queen with the King and then knock out the heart.

When LHO has Q9 or Q10, they CAN cover with the 9 or 10 (should). You then win with the King and play the hearts. Croc coup blocks the suit.

A9xxx, A10xxx, and A109xx seem more likely than AQxxx, especially as the latter requires the heart Ace also.

The interesting issue is whether when the 8 wins you have the guts later to smother the Queen.

[Codo]

if they lead fourth best, RHO has two out of AQT97. The jack wins if these two are out of T97. The 8 wins if he has q7 precisely. Any ideas, what has a higher chance to succeed?
After a spade to the jack queen and king I play on heart and conced one down, because I misguessed in spades and spades are 5-3.

But I see no convincing line which will make more often the the simply approach here.

[rbforster]

What's up with this X of 1♣? I thought it would be pretty much an obvious 1♠ call if LHO had 5 spades and the normal decent hand that could double. On the assumption spades are 4-4 and LHO having most of the values, it seems normal play the J♠, winning with the K if necessary, and play hearts. You might be able to squeeze LHO with Kx of clubs and Jxxx of diamonds in the end position (assuming you mis-guess spades and lose 3 spades and a heart).

[cnszsun]

I have same curiosity.
Is that a popular choice to double instead of bidding 1♠ when holding 5♠s?

[skjaeran]

cnszsun, on Jul 18 2008, 09:46 AM, said:

I have same curiosity.
Is that a popular choice to double instead of bidding 1♠ when holding 5♠s?

Depending on where you live.

In Norway you could be more or less certain of LHO not holding 5-card spades here. And it's the same in most of Europe, as far as I know.

In the US, it's a different matter. At least at non-expert level I think it's fairly standard to start with a double with 45/54 in the majors.

[ArcLight]

I would never play a take out doubler to be holding 5 spades to the Ace and a decent hand.

>In the US, it's a different matter. At least at non-expert level I think it's fairly standard to start with a double with 45/54 in the majors.

Maybe. All articles I've read by experts (Gitelman, Lawrence, and others) advocate overcalling the 5 card major.

If you get burned on one hand because the opponents are using inferior methods its annoying, but in the long run you will come out ahead.

Against a pick up "advanced" player on BBO I went down on a couple of contracts becaus eI didn't think LHO would underled an ace against a suit contract on teh first trick, when there was no obvious reason for doing so (like dummy opening 2NT, or trying to get pard in for a ruff).


I would play the Jack. The 8 seems like a very poor idea overall.

[catatonic]

J spades and ply hearts for me as well

why would anyone x instead of bidding 1spade on a 12 count unless 5440 , in which case you have problems anyway

[kenrexford]

I don't think y'all are thinking through this play right. Consider the possibilities:

A109xx--Qx (8 wins or forces Queen, leaving suit blocked; J leaves you in trouble from the right)

A10xxx--Q9 (8 forces King, but the suit is blocked because the Q is stiff; J leaves you in trouble from the right)

A9xxx-Q10 (same as above)

AQxxx (Jack better, no matter where the 10 and 9 are located, but will always be in trouble from the right; 8 leaves you in trouble from both sides)

AQ109x is a holding that is implausible but where you cannot go wrong either way.

Thus, it seems to me that the 8 wins more often as to position, at the sacrifice of the possibility of two tricks in spades.

[FrancesHinden]

Yes but the rest of us think that LHO usually does not have 5 spades to have made a take-out double, and thus we put the jack up to generate a double stop when LHO has AQxx spades and the ace of hearts.

Also, it's true we are 'in trouble from the right' but who makes a take-out double on AQxx xxxx Jxx Kx (or whatever) ?

[kenrexford]

I missed the whole double thing (oops!), but...

If RHO has only four spades, then the opponents can win three spades and a heart for starters if I take the wrong approach in spades. Meanwhile, I'll take one spade and three hearts, plus four assured tricks in the minors. I'll need the diamonds coming in if I get spades wrong, for four tricks.

That's a tough one. Maybe the Jack is right with the double.

[ceeb]

Duck!

A low ♠ from the dummy is needed when LHO doubled rather than overcalled with a bad 5-card spade suit. Regardless of many people's remarkable confidence that this approach is old-fashioned and has been proven inferior, LHO might not be so up to date.

The ♠J is necessary when LHO doubled rather than bid ♠AQxxx -- surely far less likely.

If LHO has ♠AQxx the ♠J play seems superficially beneficial but how much does it really help? Maybe an overtrick. For example if the ♦'s are guessable, then making the hand is on the ♦ guess, not on the spade play. If LHO has ♠AQxx, ♥Axxx, ♦xx, ♣Kxx the hand is unlikely ever to make.

[gnasher]

Deleted - doesn't work

[FrancesHinden]

ceeb, on Jul 18 2008, 08:52 PM, said:

If LHO has ♠AQxx the ♠J play seems superficially beneficial but how much does it really help?

Yes, it helps.
Win the SJ and knock out the ace of hearts.
West has to play something back... if it's e.g. a club we put the ace up and cash hearts, and now if West started with a 'normal' takeout double we don't need to guess diamonds, instead we play them from the top and if West was originally 4432 have 9 tricks, whilst if he was 4441 he will have to give us a spade trick

[kenrexford]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 19 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

ceeb, on Jul 18 2008, 08:52 PM, said:

If LHO has ♠AQxx the ♠J play seems superficially beneficial but how much does it really help?

Yes, it helps.
Win the SJ and knock out the ace of hearts.
West has to play something back... if it's e.g. a club we put the ace up and cash hearts, and now if West started with a 'normal' takeout double we don't need to guess diamonds, instead we play them from the top and if West was originally 4432 have 9 tricks, whilst if he was 4441 he will have to give us a spade trick

If LHO has 4423 pattern, we could crash the Jack and King of spades together for funsies and still make game. So, the spade play "does not help."

If LHO has 4414 pattern, we win the spade Jack, he wins the heart Ace, and he returns a heart. He is not immediately required to give us a spade trick.

However, it is true that we will have won the spade Jack, lost a heart, won a heart, cashed our hearts, and run our top three diamonds, to end up with five cards remaining, seven tricks in the bag, and an obvious eighth.

But, if we then exit a spade, we might have a solution. However, if LHO has only four spades, then RHO will have two remaining. If he has 97, 107, 109, or some such holding, he will win the first or second spade before cashing a diamond and leading a club.

So, it is not as easy as suggested.

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on Jul 19 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 19 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

ceeb, on Jul 18 2008, 08:52 PM, said:

If LHO has ♠AQxx the ♠J play seems superficially beneficial but how much does it really help?

Yes, it helps.
Win the SJ and knock out the ace of hearts.
West has to play something back... if it's e.g. a club we put the ace up and cash hearts, and now if West started with a 'normal' takeout double we don't need to guess diamonds, instead we play them from the top and if West was originally 4432 have 9 tricks, whilst if he was 4441 he will have to give us a spade trick

If LHO has 4423 pattern, we could crash the Jack and King of spades together for funsies and still make game. So, the spade play "does not help."

If LHO has 4414 pattern, we win the spade Jack, he wins the heart Ace, and he returns a heart. He is not immediately required to give us a spade trick.

However, it is true that we will have won the spade Jack, lost a heart, won a heart, cashed our hearts, and run our top three diamonds, to end up with five cards remaining, seven tricks in the bag, and an obvious eighth.

But, if we then exit a spade, we might have a solution. However, if LHO has only four spades, then RHO will have two remaining. If he has 97, 107, 109, or some such holding, he will win the first or second spade before cashing a diamond and leading a club.

So, it is not as easy as suggested.

Sorry ken your reply seems to bear no relation to my post.

I am not considering LHO being 4414 given that he doubled 1C for take-out. I was pointing out that winning the SJ at trick 1 means that, if LHO is either 4432 or 4441 IN THAT ORDER, we do not have to guess the diamond layout (i.e. we don't have to risk a diamond finesse). We can simply cash all our top tricks, and either we have 9 of them (diamonds were 3-3) or LHO has to win the fourth diamond and give us a spade.

If LHO is 4423 we need him to have the CK, and I agree we will need something very nice in spades in order to endplay him.