[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Jul 20 2008, 09:33 PM, said:

haha shoot me, I give up. You can't post these in the Advanced forum and when you post here youre told as a B/I you can't bid these anyway.

Well, why not ask what agreements it takes to bid these, or how can we find slam?

Why does one of the bids have to be bad? Why does there have to be fault?

[the hog]

jtfanclub, on Jul 21 2008, 11:08 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Jul 20 2008, 09:33 PM, said:

haha shoot me,  I give up.  You can't  post these in the Advanced forum and when you post here youre told as a B/I you can't bid these anyway.

Well, why not ask what agreements it takes to bid these, or how can we find slam?

Why does one of the bids have to be bad? Why does there have to be fault?

Because 5C is a bludgeon bid. It will end the auction when you have a slam available.
As I said, 4C is forcing; given that it may be misunderstood, bid 3S earlier - not ideal to splinter on a stiff Ace, but at least it will not be misunderstood.

[benlessard]

What maybe beginners dont understand is that 2C (& 3C after 2H GF) doesnt show a minimum hand.

AJx
AKx
x
AJxxxx

1C-----1D
???

you may not agree with 2C here but its the "standard bid". Your clubs are not good enough for 3C. Some will bid 2Nt but partner going to expect that you are balanced and that you have at most 5 clubs. It might be tough afterward to play 6C instead of 3Nt/6D. Of course 2C isnt perfect, if partner got 3 clubs hes going to raise even with little values. If hes got 1 clubs and cannot bid 2D/2Nt then game is unlikely anyway. With 9 pts and 2 clubs he will raise you a fair amount of time. The problems hands are if hes got 7-8pts and a 2 card support (in that case game might be good or it might be bad)

After 2H Gf, 3C doesnt show or denies extras. So 5C is premature. Even in a very strong field the majority will be in 6 and not in 7. Tough hand

[jtfanclub]

benlessard, on Jul 21 2008, 08:04 AM, said:

After 2H Gf, 3C doesnt show or denies extras.

My turn for the '?'

Is that actually standard? It seems...odd, to say the least.

There are about 5 bids I'd rather make on the example hand rather than 3♣. They include 2♠ (control with extras), 2NT (control without extras), and 3♥ (3 card support with honor help). I'd probably pick 3♥. I would never consider 3♣.

But then, sometimes my definitions of what is 'standard' aren't standard.

[vuroth]

analysismi, on Jul 20 2008, 09:18 PM, said:

Also, unless you have very specific partnership agreements about deciding how solid suits are, you just can't get to the slams with < 30 points. Not with beginner-intermediate standard bidding.

Really? Not even with reverses, forcing auctions, and control-showing cue bids?

I mean, advanced bidding will almost certainly be BETTER at finding the slams, but surely a B/I can look at the shape of their hand and say "Hey, maybe this is all working!"

I'm a B/I because I make really horrible mistakes, not because I'm allergic to slams.

[brianshark]

I agree with a lot of what jtfan has said. Sometimes making the pragmatic bid and avoiding potential misunderstandings saves imps, especially involving inexperienced players, or experienced players in inexperienced partnerships.

If you are sure your partner will not pass 4♣ then bid 4♣, hoping to hear a ♦ control. That is the theoretical correct bid.

If you are not sure whether your partner will pass 4♣ then you have a decision to make. Either you bid it anyway and win the post mortem but risk an embarassing loss, or you make the pragmatic bid knowing you may lose out to those bidding a slam, but you haven't had a disaster. I guess it depends on whether you are playing to win or playing to improve.

[benlessard]

Quote

I agree with a lot of what jtfan has said. Sometimes making the pragmatic bid and avoiding potential misunderstandings saves imps, especially involving inexperienced players, or experienced players in inexperienced partnerships.

I agree but begginers must learn early that a reverse by responder is 100% GF and experienced players in a new partnerships already know that.

Quote

They include 2S (control with extras), 2NT (control without extras), and 3♥ (3 card support with honor help). I'd probably pick 3♥. I would never consider 3♣.

But then, sometimes my definitions of what is 'standard' aren't standard.

Well i think its pretty standard to show 2S/2Nt as half a stopper/stopper but many also play - half a stoppers or non-positionnal holdings/positionnal holdings.

I personnally think that bidding 2Nt with Axx is disgusting especially when partner has Qx or Qxx and the lead is written in the sky.

My particular understanding are
2S ---Txx, Jx, stiff K, Ax, Axx, AK (half a stopper or non-positionnal stopper)
2Nt Kx,AQ, Qx ---any spades holding that made me want to declare. Could be half a stopper 1 or 2 stoppers.

3C obviously show a very good clubs suit but it could be running or not (AKQXXX or KQJTxxx) minimum or not.

For me wanting to show extra strenght before finding the S stoppers situation is like

Quote

We put the cart before the horse, and shut the stable door when the steed is stolen

[brianshark]

benlessard, on Jul 23 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

Quote

I agree with a lot of what jtfan has said. Sometimes making the pragmatic bid and avoiding potential misunderstandings saves imps, especially involving inexperienced players, or experienced players in inexperienced partnerships.

I agree but begginers must learn early that a reverse by responder is 100% GF and experienced players in a new partnerships already know that.

GF means forcing to 3NT or the 4-level. You don't have to go to 5 minor if 3NT is deemed unplayable, and that is obviously the issue here.

[mike777]

brianshark, on Jul 24 2008, 03:35 AM, said:

benlessard, on Jul 23 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

Quote

I agree with a lot of what jtfan has said. Sometimes making the pragmatic bid and avoiding potential misunderstandings saves imps, especially involving inexperienced players, or experienced players in inexperienced partnerships.

I agree but begginers must learn early that a reverse by responder is 100% GF and experienced players in a new partnerships already know that.

GF means forcing to 3NT or the 4-level. You don't have to go to 5 minor if 3NT is deemed unplayable, and that is obviously the issue here.

minor point but I hope, I really hope game forcing means game forcing....not pass in 4 of minor.

I agree a reverse in and of itself is not game forcing, nor opening 2c bid unless you have special agreements. I agree some reverses are game forcing as here but not all.

I agree in this case 2h is a reverse and game forcing.

As I Mentioned in my first post I think south was unclear if 2h here is game force 100% or not.

[brianshark]

Well, in this case the reverse is by responder, which IS "game forcing". On this auction, the reason that 4♣ is a slam try rather that to play is because opener can still have a ♠ stop and responder can rebid either red suit to give the chance for opener to bid 3NT, so he bypassed a possible 3NT contract, hence slam try.

On the other hand, if the auction went:

West North East South

- 1♣ Pass 1♦
Pass 2♣ Pass 2♥
Pass 3♣ Pass 3♦
Pass 3♥ Pass 4♣
Pass ???

... or something similar, opener is perfectly entitled to pass with a minimum because the tried for 3NT, failed, responder would have bid 5♣ with extras so both hands are minimum and they don't have enough for the 5-level.

[mike777]

brianshark, on Jul 24 2008, 03:52 AM, said:

Well, in this case the reverse is by responder, which IS "game forcing". On this auction, the reason that 4♣ is a slam try rather that to play is because opener can still have a ♠ stop and responder can rebid either red suit to give the chance for opener to bid 3NT, so he bypassed a possible 3NT contract, hence slam try.

On the other hand, if the auction went:

West  North East  South

-     1♣    Pass  1♦
Pass  2♣    Pass  2♥
Pass  3♣    Pass  3♦
Pass  3♥    Pass  4♣
Pass  ???

... or something similar, opener is perfectly entitled to pass with a minimum because the tried for 3NT, failed, responder would have bid 5♣ with extras so both hands are minimum and they don't have enough for the 5-level.

If I was playing with anyone with bridge experience once I bid 2h I think we are in 100% game force auction in USA.

If that means we get to some 23 hcp 3nt hand ok fair enough.
1) If you want to argue one should not open one club on junk fair enough.
2) If you want to argue one should not bid 2h on borderline hands fair enough.

[benlessard]

Quote

reverse by responder is 100% GF

Quote

GF means forcing to 3NT or the 4-level.

In standard its 100% GF not more not less.