[kenrexford]

MP.

A. ♠xx ♥Axxx ♦xxxxx ♣xx
B. ♠xx ♥xxxx ♦Qxxxx ♣xx

4♠-4NT-P-5♦
5♠-6♦-P-P-
6♠-P-P-?

Part 2:

C. ♠xx ♥xx ♦xxxxx ♣Axxx
D. ♠xx ♥xx ♦Qxxxx ♣xxxx

Any reconsideration of your first thoughts?

[inquiry]

Partner forced to slam, and then made what clearly has to be a forcing pass over 6♠ with a first round spade control.

"b" and "d" I double. Since 4NT is two places to play (not minors), I can't work out an effective difference between "c" and "a". At imps, I would double with both of these... after all, the bidding suggest wild distribution, and bad breaks. At mp, I guess i will bid grand with both C and A, but i am not happy doing so with either. But partner is bidding like he has them, so I will believe him.

[kenrexford]

inquiry, on Jul 7 2008, 10:54 PM, said:

Partner forced to slam, and then made what clearly has to be a forcing pass over 6♠ with a first round spade control.

"b" and "d" I double. Since 4NT is two places to play (not minors), I can't work out an effective difference between "c" and "a". At imps, I would double with both of these... after all, the bidding suggest wild distribution, and bad breaks. At mp, I guess i will bid grand with both C and A, but i am not happy doing so with either. But partner is bidding like he has them, so I will believe him.

I think you are right, but I personally still have one lingering question. Why not bid 6♣? What does the failure to bid 6♣ mean? It might not make a difference in this case, but I'm still wondering what 6♣ would have meant.

Strangely, I have a feeling that 6♣ should show hearts. If so, then maybe a double with C. is right also (the doubleton is not carrying any weight). OTOH, if partner had bid 6♣, to show hearts, and then this call came back otherwise identically, then C. is the grand bid and A. is the double.

[inquiry]

I think 6♣ shows ♣'s and ♥'s, If you really wanted a bid to show hearts, 5NT (pick a slam) will do it --- if you use 5NT here for pick a slam.

[kenrexford]

inquiry, on Jul 7 2008, 11:11 PM, said:

I think 6♣ shows ♣'s and ♥'s, If you really wanted a bid to show hearts, 5NT (pick a slam) will do it --- if you use 5NT here for pick a slam.

I thought about that, but that seems wrong also.

If Overcaller has clubs and hearts, and enough to venture a slam opposite the unappealing 5♦ reply, he can just bid 6♥. 5♦ showed that hearts were at least as good as clubs, and usually better. With diamond preference, but fewer hearts than clubs, it seems that Advancer should bid clubs. I always assumed that principle:

If Advancer likes clubs best, he bids 5♣. Life is good.

If Advancer likes diamonds best, he bids 5♣ if he prefers clubs to hearts or bids 5♦ if hearts are equal to or better than the clubs.

If Advancer likes hearts best, he picks his favorite minor.

No?

[Fluffy]

6♦ doesn't have to mean anything, he doesn't expect RHO to bid spades a 3rd tine, nobody does, and he should not give help on leads.

[kenrexford]

Fluffy, on Jul 8 2008, 12:19 PM, said:

6♦ doesn't have to mean anything, he doesn't expect RHO to bid spades a 3rd tine, nobody does, and he should not give help on leads.

I think your point about not giving up information for lead purposes actually bolsters my point that 6♦ does, in fact, say something.

Consider two hands (one of which is the actual hand):

♠-- ♥x ♦AKJxxx ♣ AKJxxx
♠-- ♥AKJxxx ♦AKJxxx ♣ x

With the former, bidding 6♦ makes sense. SHowing clubs just for the S&G of it makes no sense. Partner already said he likes diamonds better than clubs. Easy problem.

However, what about the second hand? Consider two possible hand shapes for Advancer, with no honors tossed in:

♠xxxx ♥xxxx ♦xxx ♣xx
♠xxxx ♥xx ♦xxxxx ♣xx

On the first, Responder will pick diamonds because he prefers diamonds to clubs and will not commit to 5♥ (a good move if you had held both minors). However, hearts plays better. If LHO has, for instance, Q10xx in diamonds, that can be reduced from two losers to one loser. Plus, the risk of a heart ruff seems higher than the risk of a diamond ruff. Conversely, on the second, you prefer 6♦ to 6♥.

Thus, because of this issue, having 6♣ (or something) re-introduce a hidden heart suit makes sense, to ensure that the strain is right.

When that person does not introduce the hidden heart suit, for strain purposes, there are a few possible conclusions. He may have both minors. He may be willing to risk an inferior strain to keep things secret. He may not have any agreement as to how to re-introduce hearts.

The added benefit of a possible slam or a possible further competitive sequence is nice, but not the only motive to introduce hearts.