[mike777]

ok

I think perhaps those(me) that bid 3c thought it was more than this given one club could be ten to 11 hcp in your examples. 12-13 support points.

[mikeh]

Adam, in terms of your concerns about a bad slam after a splinter... I really do not understand how anyone could/would/should launch into keycard with two quick losers in a non-cuebid suit. Of course, as we all know, I don't use keycard in minor suit auctions very often... if I were playing kickback, I'd have 4♥ available, but that would look like: Axx x Kxx AQ10xxx.

With a hand that has xxx Qx Kx AKQxxx, a couple of points.

The first is that this isn't that great a hand, since the club Q is not really pulling its weight.. we rate to be on a minimum of a 10 card fit, so the Queen is not roadkill but not as helpful as a middle trump honour usually is.

The second is that this is an easy hand to bid without keycard.

Cue 4♦, and over 4♥, bid 4N.... still interested in slam, not enough to bid slam now, and no convenient cue. If responder has extra values, he can bid slam (with a huge hand including first round spade control, he can cue above 5♣).

On the given hand, responder has done his all via 3♠ so will sign off in 5♣.

I figure that if I post enough of these 4N non-keycard, non-natural auctions, maybe I'll persuade someone other than those already using the style (Impact and Frances, I think )

[awm]

I remain unconvinced by these cuebidding auctions. For example:

Many people claim to cuebid up the line. Yet some of the same people say that if partner makes a slam try over 3♠ they will bid 5♣, failing to show either of the two first round controls outside the suit. Yes, denying your red suit aces will keep partner out of slam when it's bad, but it seems likely there are many hands that make 6♣ where partner can't kick it in because he's missing three first round controls (spades, hearts, diamonds) with no other losers.

The idea that a 3♣ raise shows better than 11 hcp with a three-card fit is unbelievable to me. Even if you do open pretty light at times, surely you are not rebidding 3♣ routinely with 13 hcp and six clubs? The rules for opening bids are not as mysterious as Mike777 seems to make them out. You open if you have a balanced 12 hcp in standard. There are some hands with less than 12 hcp which are still "better" than a typical 12 hcp balanced hand, for example AK+A and some tens is better than the average twelve hcp even though it's just 11. And a 10-11 point hand with a nice six card suit (i.e. xxx x Kxx AKTxxx) is better than a typical balanced 12 too. There is a little bit of dispute about how to evaluate shape at the opening bid, because these shapely hands can be incredibly powerful opposite a good fit and at the same time incredibly lousy opposite a misfit. Anyway, the hands where you invite opposite an opening are hands with around 11 hcp (i.e. partner needs about a queen more than a balanced 12 for game). Sometimes a hand with fewer than 11 "high card points" is worth an invite because you have a good fit for partner (i.e. you can guarantee partner's long suit will run in 3NT, or you have the ability to ruff in a likely suit contract).

For Mike's auction, I am not a huge fan of keycard either, but this sequence still doesn't unravel the situation. After 1♣-1♥-2♣-3♠-4♦-4♥, what is opener to do with a rock-solid hand that is simply missing two first round controls (i.e. xxx x KQx AKQxxx)? It seems ridiculous to bid 6♣ now with a singleton in partner's first bid suit (give partner x AKQxx JTx JTxx for an obvious splinter and 4♥ cue that could easily make slam if the ♦KQ were the ace). So regardless of whether it's "keycard" or "further try for slam with no cue" opener is bidding 4NT with this hand. My point is just that after splintering it is quite hard to get to slam opposite the one hand while avoiding it opposite the other.

[cherdano]

So awm, you actually bid 5♣ and complain that the 3♠ bidders sometimes miss a good slam?
Yes my bidding plan is basically to give up on slam unless partner has a superperfect maximum where he can bid keycard over 3♠ (he can jump to 4N directly, and I assume Mike's partner could do the same), but so what?

[awm]

My point is that I think 3♠ is more likely to cause partner to overreach to a poor slam than to find a good one.

I suppose if we are guaranteed that partner never blasts keycard at his next turn over 3♠, and our plan is to always sign off in 5♣ as soon as possible (even if this entails denying one or more aces we actually hold) then a 3♠ splinter accomplishes the same result as just blasting 5♣. But why take the risk?

[kenrexford]

A quick note: Qx in hearts is MUCH better if the diamond Kx is Ax. With that hand, you need partner to have the AK in hearts and out to make a slam (and four trumps). Qx/Kx means something is fluff.

That said, I'm not sure where this idea of blasting 5♣ after bidding 3♠ is coming from. Back to the xxx-Qx-Kx-AKQxxx. You bid 3♠. If partner bids, say, 4♣, you bid 4♦. If partner bids 4♥ (heart Queen), you cannot bid 4♠ (no void) and you cannot bid 4NT (you have a minimum splinter). So, you sign off then at 5♣. WTP?

[mikeh]

Quote

My point is that I think 3♠ is more likely to cause partner to overreach to a poor slam than to find a good one.

I suppose if we are guaranteed that partner never blasts keycard at his next turn over 3♠, and our plan is to always sign off in 5♣ as soon as possible (even if this entails denying one or more aces we actually hold) then a 3♠ splinter accomplishes the same result as just blasting 5♣. But why take the risk?

If your partners routinely drive to slam over 3♠ with NO side aces, and the Qx in hearts, you need to readjust your bidding calipers. Your partners are clearly expecting full opening values (and then some) for the splinter. I used to belong to a 'strong' splinter school, but was persuaded eventually that I was missing too many good contracts. Thus, for me, if I think that we can make 5♣ and that a good fitting hand will offer a play for slam, I splinter if I can. It doesn't show that I hold slam ambitions: it says that I may have a hand that will cooperate IF partner has slam ambitions once aware of my shortness.

And I don't understand the need for the 'guarantee' that partner won't keycard. Give him Axx x Axx AQ10xxx, if he can keycard and get out in 5♣, which he can if playing kickback, then why not keycard? Opposite x AQxxx Kxx Jxxx, and how can we have worse if he has all those Aces, of course he should keycard.

Given that we hold the red Aces, it becomes more difficult to construct a keycard hand: xxx Kx KQx AQxxxx? Even 2 keycards gives no great play for slam... especially if one of them is the club King

I think the lesson we can learn from this is that we can usually splinter more aggressively with side aces than without, because opener SHOULD NOT go crazy when he is missing 3 or more keycards..

It comes down to Justin's point about valuing Aces and Kings. Aces and Kings are HUGE for game and slam when we have a source of tricks. Axx xx xx AKxxxx makes for an awesome 3N opposite this hand, but compare it to facing x KQJxx Qxx QJxx.

[mike777]

I guess I am in the strong splinter school. If partner bid 3s, with the example hand
xxx...Qx.....Kx....AKQxxx I am bidding rkc and slam if they show 2 aces. I just thought the OP hand was borderline 3s not a wtp 3s bid.

I certainly understand bidding 3s in the OP and will rkc with OP hand if 3c cannot be 12-13 support points. I can understand bidding 3s even if it 3c does. I do not see anything wrong with 3c showing 12-13 support points if we are opening 10-11 point hands with 6 clubs.

Interesting thread.

btw the poll votes gave three main responses, 3c or 3s or 4d. I emailed this around and got the same three responses. As a side note is this slam 50% or better missing a keycard and Q of clubs?

[han]

Partner didn't want to rebid 1NT on three small spades? That's hilarious!

Bidding game because you are too weak to make a descriptive gameforcing bid but too strong too invite is also pretty funny.

[ulven]

3S for me too, which btw isn't F to game in our style. It's forcing to 3NT/4m giving us a shot at game and a chance to bail out with ill-fitting minimum. So, 4C would then be NF and 4D is FG/slamtry for clubs.