[jtfanclub]

Could we get a list of rules changes from ACBL face to face games to ACBL BBO games?

For examples:

1. In an ACBL FTF game, in the event of a hesitation that might convey UI, the director should be called immediately, and the game should wait until the director arrives. In an online game, you should....

2. In the event of a late explanation or correction of an explanation, in FTF the director should be called immediately, and the game should wait until the direcotr arrives.

3. In the event of the disagreement about a claim, in FTF the director should be called immediately, etc.

4. In the event of suspicious behavior, such as an unsual psyche, in the ACBL you fill out a recorded form. In online, you...

If we can get issues like this clarified, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Old York]

I believe that in all cases you should:-

1. Message the TD immediately
2. Complete the hand to the best of your ability
3. Ask TD to examine the board
4. Ask TD to consider an adjustment

This is the only logical way to deal with any infraction of the rules, whilst playing on-line.
On-line hesitations are impossible to prove due to bad connections, but if UI causes partner to act unethically, then TD must adjust

Tony (Duke of York)

p.s. This is not an ACBL problem, it affects all tournaments

[FrancesHinden]

Old York, on Jul 10 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

p.s. This is not an ACBL problem, it affects all tournaments

True, but the ACBL is one of only a few organisations that has official sanctioned games on BBO.

(Does anyone else?)

[Jacki]

1. It's true in face to face games hesitations are exactly that - hesitations. In online bridge a hesitation is frequently the doorbell, wife asks a question, child falls down or connections hiccup. There's no way to be certain. A hesitation (alleged) online often is not even obvious to the player hesitating who believes he is playing in tempo at his turn. Since we can't determine with any certainty why there was a hesitation, we have to ask both partner and opponents not to take any inferences from what appears to them to be a hesitation. And we see that this advice is followed.

2. In the event of a late alert or change of explanation, the director is called immediately. The director will ask that play continue and ascertain if there has been damage or not. There may not be a decision on damage immediately. Here is why: Suppose, as happened in another thread here, a late alert caused a player to bid, in his estimation, incorrectly. It would seem at first glance that damage did in fact occur. But just suppose that this incorrect contract turned out to be good for the non-offender. If we automatically adjust this to +3 or 60% and the actual play of the hand gave him +8 or 85%, it wouldn't be fair to him to adjust the result down since the late alerter's side was at fault.

3. If there is a disagreement about a claim, the director should be (and usually IS) called immediately. The director will listen to both sides and rule, using ACBL guidelines concerning outstanding trumps, etc.

4. For suspected unethical behavior, this should be reported to the tournament director(s) who will report it to me. I keep a list. If necessary I involve our Abuse Department. Since our tournaments are so short, we generally warn players at the first psychic bid that they've pretty much used up their psych quota for the game. If they just happen to pick up another hand during the game that's particularly suited for a psych, this is not an automatic penalty. These have to be determined on a case by case basis and requires the director's judgement.

I hope this helps give the OP a better understanding of how we handle things online that by the very nature of the beast can't be exactly the same as in face to face games. But if there's more questions, I'll be happy to try to answer them.

Jacki

[jtfanclub]

Jacki, on Jul 10 2008, 02:56 PM, said:

I hope this helps give the OP a better understanding of how we handle things online that by the very nature of the beast can't be exactly the same as in face to face games.

Yes, thank you. To be honest, had I realized at the time I wrote this that you were redoing the help files, I would not have posted it.

I'll wait until the help files come out before I have any more questions.

[A2003]

In FTF ACBL games, there is an announcement to be made for opening 1NT range.
Example: 15-17 range.
Also, there is a statement to be made before the beginning of each round about what system they play, example: SAYC, 2/1, BIG club system etc.
In On-line BBO games, there is no such requirement to announce before the round.

In FTF, transfer responses to 1NT opening, Texas, Jacoby transfers are announced as "Transfers".
This is mandatory.
In On-line BBO games, there is NO such requirement to announce as "Transfer".
Here, most will not announce "Transfer" as most think 4 way transfers are standard.

Carding methods and opening lead agreement announcement:
FTF they announce as required and when asked.
BBO On-line games, some do announce and some don't. This is not emphasized by TD.
Players feel , by asking questions will only lose time and board and so, players don't ask.
Typing a question takes more time than asking verbal in FTF.

[awm]

I'm pretty sure there is not a requirement of announcing your general approach in a face to face ACBL game. Certainly I have not read about this anywhere nor is it practiced in any tournament (local or national) in which I have played.

There is a requirement to pre-alert if you play super-light openings, methods that may be "fundamentally unfamiliar" to opponents, etc. But SAYC (or 2/1, or a fairly vanilla precision club) don't fall into this category.

It's true that you're supposed to announce notrump range and transfers. When playing online I generally alert my 1NT opening with the range, and alert transfers with the self description "transfer" or just the name of the suit transferred to. I see other people do this too, probably 90% of people using transfers in ACBL tourneys do seem to alert them (notrump ranges are more haphazard).

As for carding, some announce it at the beginning of the round and some don't, but again it's not a requirement to announce it in face to face games. Usually people tell you if you ask.

[jillybean]

Jacki,

I am not an expert on the laws and I don’t play in many ACBL tournaments. However, I do have an interest in understanding and applying the laws both 'offline' and online. In response to your points;


1. I agree it is not the cause of the hesitation but the use of that information that must be scrutinized. (Proprieties 73C).

2. Law21 deals with calls based on misinformation, why have different rules here?

3. Agree

4. Im not sure if you are making 2 separate points, unethical behavior, cheating, abusive remarks etc and psyches or if you consider psyches to be unethical. Anyway, law40 deals with Psyches and the only limitation is that it is not based on a partnership understanding or ‘fielded’ – the frequency of psyches is not regulated as far as I can tell.

[Jacki]

Regarding number 4. Yes I was making 2 different points in response to the 2 different points posed by the OP.

Regarding number 2. At the present time, undos are not allowed in ACBL games. I know not everyone agrees with this, but that's the way it is in the ACBL games on BBO now. There may be a time when people are allowed to change their calls or correct their misclicks but if and when that happens, it likely won't be in the speedball games. When there is damage (again) because of a failure to alert, a late alert, or what's perceived as misinformation, adjustments are made to the non offending side.

I was merely responding the the OPs request for clarification of some of the rules in the current ACBL games on BBO. We hope to have a more comprehensive list of rules that people can easily find available soon. And as always, the way we do things now are subject to change as new and different tournaments are introduced.

Jacki

[pigpenz]

if there is no pre alert and say opps open 1nt 10-13
are you allowed to say partner do we play any sort of defense to this or partner lets play this? This comes up quite frequently.

I have seen cases where polish players have had no cc filled out and the club opening is 3 different things etc. In a speedball event to just get the TD to the table to sort out the mess basically kills the whole round.

[blackshoe]

Regarding "no undos" and the laws, there is this:

Law 72A said:

Duplicate bridge tournaments should be played in strict accordance with the Laws.

and this

80B2(e) said:

The Tournament Organizer’s powers and duties include: ... to establish the conditions for bidding and play in accordance with these laws, together with any special conditions...

and

80B2(f) said:

...to announce regulations supplementary to, but not in conflict with, these Laws.

Before somebody says "those are the f2f laws, they don't apply to online bridge", first off, the online laws are identical to the f2f laws in these areas, with one exception: the online laws add to 80B2(e) this

Quote

Powers of the sponsoring organisation [sic] to establish special conditions include, but are not limited to, the provision of software enforcing correct procedure, the establishment of regulations governing the use of software facilities for alerts and disclosure, and other changes, not in conflict with these Laws, as may be necessary for the conduct of online bridge.

It is a basic principle here that regulations are supplementary to and not in conflict with the laws. The "no undo" regulation conflicts with Laws 25, 45C4(b), and 47, and hence is illegal.

That said, I'm sure ACBL here on BBO will, as do most tournament organizers both on and offline (particularly, offline, at club level) do whatever they damn well please. I don't think much of that, but if the players accept it, so be it.

[barmar]

Jacki, on Jul 10 2008, 03:56 PM, said:

1. It's true in face to face games hesitations are exactly that - hesitations. In online bridge a hesitation is frequently the doorbell, wife asks a question, child falls down or connections hiccup. There's no way to be certain.

This is mentioned frequently, but I wonder how often this is the case? In my experience (I've been playing bridge online for nearly 20 years), people often mention when they return from an interruption, e.g. "Sorry, doorbell", "baby crying". Certainly if someone calls the TD about a hesitation, and it was because of something like this, I'd expect them to say so. Sure, they could be lying, but usually they're not.

[A2003]

On-line BBO speedball tournament:
Are the players allowed to chat to the opponents the following:

jrl1010: faster play brad
jrl1010: 2 minute warning brad
Brad: tons time opp

Actually the game is over more than a min left

Players are aware of their commitment to the time in the speedball tourney.
Is it not disturbing and wasting time in writing instead of thinking and playing?

This is much better in FTF games and they can see that the player is thinking.


The time pressure added by the opponent other than TD is another problem in ON-Line game.
Is their any rule who can talk about timing in on-line games?
Players or TD or both?

[pigpenz]

A2003, on Jul 13 2008, 11:27 AM, said:

Is it not disturbing and wasting time in writing instead of thinking and playing?

some people use scripts so its only a click of a button to post the message to the chat window.