[cicus]

cicus, on Jun 27 2008, 03:49 AM, said:

brianshark, on Jun 27 2008, 03:23 AM, said:

Easy to criticise the selection process now that they are not doing so well. But the fact is, Mme Lavazza and her money has selected pretty damn succesful Italian teams for years now.

There was always going to be a reshuffle of the team because of Bocchi and Duboin's imminent split (imo the strongest pair of the Italian team) and because it was felt the team needed a reshuffle anyway. So what if the first attempt didn't work out? Hardly a crime to give Sementa-Angelini a try.

Assuming the Italians don't claw back their 20 imp deficit in the last 4 matches, I'm pretty sure once the squad becomes Duboin-Sementa, Fontoni-Nunes, Versace-Lauria, they will go back to winning easily and often.

I am pretty sure this lineup is not going to occur. As I read in an interview, signora Lavazza said she was sure Fantoni-Nunes will return to the Italian team. In my interpretation this is equivalent to claiming that 'as long as I'm alive, Fantoni and Nunes will never play for Italy again'.

To make it clear for you what I am talking about, here is a link to the Lavazza interview.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Re...6/msg00046.html

If Bocchi and Duboin intended to part with each other why did Lavazza not discarded them in favour of Fantoni-Nunes? Because, it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back?

[mike777]

..

[Walddk]

cicus, on Jun 28 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

... it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back?

I don't think she has a choice now. First time since 1993 that Italy hasn't been on the podium.

Roland

[paulg]

Walddk, on Jun 28 2008, 12:55 PM, said:

cicus, on Jun 28 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

... it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back?

I don't think she has a choice now. First time since 1993 that Italy hasn't been on the podium.

Roland

Versace - Lauria
Duboin - Sementa
Bocchi - Madala

gives a choice, but of course depends on when Madala meets the residency requirements.

[mike777]

cardsharp, on Jun 28 2008, 09:42 AM, said:

Walddk, on Jun 28 2008, 12:55 PM, said:

cicus, on Jun 28 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

... it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back?

I don't think she has a choice now. First time since 1993 that Italy hasn't been on the podium.

Roland

Versace - Lauria
Duboin - Sementa
Bocchi - Madala

gives a choice, but of course depends on when Madala meets the residency requirements.

Could not disagree more strongly.

Why appoint the national team?


Let everyone in Italy compete and if 6 nonexperts win, so be it.

Please stop with having "GOD" or BBO forum members pick a team.

[Rossoneri]

mike777, on Jun 28 2008, 10:49 PM, said:

cardsharp, on Jun 28 2008, 09:42 AM, said:

Walddk, on Jun 28 2008, 12:55 PM, said:

cicus, on Jun 28 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

... it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back?

I don't think she has a choice now. First time since 1993 that Italy hasn't been on the podium.

Roland

Versace - Lauria
Duboin - Sementa
Bocchi - Madala

gives a choice, but of course depends on when Madala meets the residency requirements.

Could not disagree more strongly.

Why appoint the national team?


Let everyone in Italy compete and if 6 nonexperts win, so be it.

Please stop with having "GOD" or BBO forum members pick a team.

Missing the point aren't you?

No one here is picking the team, Roland is just pointing out a possible lineup that can happen without Fantunes.

[awm]

One question no one has really answered is how does Italy select it's national team?

It seems like there are many possibilities:

(1) They have an open team trials, but Lavazza's money and reputation as non-playing sponsor allows her to get the three best pairs in Italy for her team, so they always win the trials.

(2) There is a rule such that if the Italian team wins the Europeans, the same team gets to return and defend their title. Since Lavazza is in charge of this team, she can substitute players as she sees fit. However, now that Italy failed to win we may see some competition as to who can be on the team.

(3) The Italian Bridge Federation has somehow delegated to Lavazza full responsibility for the Italian national team, and as long as she keeps supporting the Federation with her money she can pick whoever she wants to be on the team.

Only the third situation seems really troubling, since it would allow for a personal grudge by the sponsor to totally prevent a particular pair from representing the country (even if they are the best pair). With that said, I don't see any strong evidence that Lavazza dislikes Fantoni and Nunes that intensely -- they have not performed particularly well in some recent events (i.e. Bermuda Bowl) and her "benching" them may just be the action of a coach disappointed with a star player's poor performance. She hasn't said anything to the effect that they will never play for her team again, and while her statement that "she is sure they will play for Italy again someday" could be read as "not on my watch" as some people suggest, it could also be that she thinks they are young and inconsistent and need a bit more seasoning, after which she will put them back on the team. Or maybe being left off for the Europeans is supposed to be a "wakeup call" to them to get their act together, and they will be back on the team right away.

[TimG]

A couple of comments:

1) I think it is common in many team sports for the coach to select the team, through some try-out process, but not one in which potential team members have to objectively win a contest. Often the try-outs will be an invitation only affair. Lavazza acts as the coach (captain). It would appear to outsiders that her money has bought her position, but it is something that the Italian Bridge Federation has endorsed.

2) Many people would consider the US process by which playing clients compete in the process to be much more ridiculous than what is going on in Italy. For the most part -- I guess, Angelini's place on the team was suspect. But, when was the last time the US put forth a team that didn't include a playing member? Still the Europeans were a qualifying event. Again, in most team sports it common to use different team members in qualifying stages than in the actual championship.

[NickRW]

TimG, on Jun 28 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

...2) Many people would consider the US process by which playing clients compete in the process to be much more ridiculous than what is going on in Italy. For the most part -- I guess, Angelini's place on the team was suspect. But, when was the last time the US put forth a team that didn't include a playing member?...

Yes, this sort of thing is what I was alluding to when I asked if other nations have similar problems...

Or, of course, maybe it isn't really a problem overall?!

[TimG]

NickRW, on Jun 28 2008, 02:07 PM, said:

TimG, on Jun 28 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

...2) Many people would consider the US process by which playing clients compete in the process to be much more ridiculous than what is going on in Italy.  For the most part -- I guess, Angelini's place on the team was suspect.  But, when was the last time the US put forth a team that didn't include a playing member?...

Yes, this sort of thing is what I was alluding to when I asked if other nations have similar problems...

Or, of course, maybe it isn't really a problem overall?!

Hasn't there been some wrangling over this issue in England in recent years? I seem to think that some players refuse to compete because they cannot play with their sponsors, or something along those lines.

[vcaramazza]

Several interesting posts here.
I will try to clarify what I meant early. Sorry for my poor English.
I believe there are three different points.

1) Fantunes were left out of the IT team, IMO unfairly. To me are the best pair in Europe, others may disagree, but I believe any bridge enthusiast will at least agree that they are at least one of the top five pairs in Europe. I remember in past European championships all the rave was about them, especially about Fantoni, to the point that he was nemed "deep Fantoni", from the software "deep finesse".
I have watched again the vugraph of the last Bermuda Bowl and did not notice a bad performance by them, they were simply very unlucky as the opponents called two slam below 50% and made them.
2) Mme Lavazza is a very whealty person and a major sponsor of Italian bridge and probably her position as a representative of the IBF is due to that. There are some positive points about it: maybe Italy has been enjoying such a strong team in recent years because all the money involved allowed champions like BD, VL anfd FN to dedicate totally to the game without any financial worry.
Still it seems to me and apparently other that she has somehow abused of her position here in order to get rid of Fantunes and insert a player that is not taken seriously in any way even by its own team mates, as the original poster states here
3) Mr Angelini is also a major sponsor in Italian bridge, and again many thanks to him for that. My main point is that if Mme Lavazza for whatever reason wanted to get rid of Fantunes, there would have been in Italy dozens of pairs able to compete decently in this event, without having their team mates complaining and have them benched out.
In the interview linked several times here Mme Lavazza, without been asked, has pointed out "the inclusion of Mr Angelini did not bring any financial advantage to the IBF", which in politishianish means: "Mr Angelini has pay a boat load of money to be here"

[TimG]

Does anyone know whether BD and LV would have represented Italy in the European Championship if the decision making had been taken out of the hands of Lavazza? Players have a funny habit of being loyal to their sponsors. Especially if it is true that Lavazza makes it possible for these players to devote something close to full time to playing bridge, I can see them declining an invitation to play if their sponsor is removed from her role as selector.

[blackshoe]

mike777, on Jun 27 2008, 10:43 PM, said:

1) Most important we need to know the facts of who is paying what and what powers have been delegated.

Why, pray tell, is how the Italians choose their teams any business of anyone else?

[Rossoneri]

NickRW, on Jun 29 2008, 03:07 AM, said:

TimG, on Jun 28 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

...2) Many people would consider the US process by which playing clients compete in the process to be much more ridiculous than what is going on in Italy.  For the most part -- I guess, Angelini's place on the team was suspect.  But, when was the last time the US put forth a team that didn't include a playing member?...

Yes, this sort of thing is what I was alluding to when I asked if other nations have similar problems...

Or, of course, maybe it isn't really a problem overall?!

Now that I think about it again, one person selecting the team to represent the nation isn't something I haven't seen before.

[gnasher]

Rossoneri, on Jun 29 2008, 01:23 AM, said:

Now that I think about it again, one person selecting the team to represent the nation isn't something I haven't seen before.

Perhaps not in bridge, but isn't it quite common in football (soccer)?

[marcD]

Walddk, on Jun 28 2008, 07:55 AM, said:

cicus, on Jun 28 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

... it seems clear to me, her only goal was to get rid of Fantoni-Nunes. And then why would she want to take them back?

I don't think she has a choice now. First time since 1993 that Italy hasn't been on the podium.

Roland

Clearly Mrs Lavazza knows something we do not know. It is difficult to imagine that bridge performance alone could justify Fantunes to be sidelined. They brought new ideas to bidding, they are fun to watch , they were the less arrogant italian pair and perform extremely well against weaker teams (which with the current euroship format is an asset).
What is intriguing is that things could evolve so quickly; Angelini was not an unknown entity for the rest of the team and they should have been committed to winning or losing with him. Guess Italy has yet to discover sportmanship (as also confirmed by the report on the the Norway game)

[awm]

There are some differences between football teams and bridge teams. For example:

(1) The football coach is normally selected for his ability to coach a winning team, knowledge of strategy, evaluation of players, and so forth. The bridge team sponsor is usually selected based on amount of money spent on bridge players and gifted to the league. I think there would be a big outcry if the owner of one of the professional clubs was made national football team coach (or worse, put on the national team as a player!) just because he has a lot of money, yet this is exactly what happens in bridge.

(2) The football team is typically selected by the coaching staff, but it is pretty widely known who the top players are and a failure to select an individual who is obviously among the country's best could cause the coach to get fired. While the identity of the country's best bridge players is also often known, a bridge sponsor is pretty much free to select whomever he or she pleases for a team and is not normally subject to the same kind of scrutiny.

(3) Football coaches take a lot of the blame when their team loses. If a favored team (like Italy in both football and bridge!) takes an early-round tumble, then the football coach is usually out of a job. The bridge sponsor isn't. This puts a lot more pressure on the football coach to select the best possible team.

(4) Football coaches (and players) are typically quite well-compensated for their efforts. Bridge players aren't, which gives them the incentive to try and play with someone who will cover their expenses (i.e. a sponsor).

[Rossoneri]

gnasher, on Jun 29 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

Rossoneri, on Jun 29 2008, 01:23 AM, said:

Now that I think about it again, one person selecting the team to represent the nation isn't something I haven't seen before.

Perhaps not in bridge, but isn't it quite common in football (soccer)?

Do we even need to talk about soccer lol.

I meant it for bridge. And sadly, it might happen again sometime soon in front of my eyes again.

[DJNeill]

Hi all,
Nunes said "all is possible" when asked whether it was still possible to change out players on the Italian team for the 2009 BB, lol.

Thanks,
Dan

[HedyG]

before the BB 2009 there will be Beijing.
interesting detail: the Italian team is not yet registered.
http://www.ecatsbridge.org/Documents/files...g/OpenTeams.pdf