[sceptic]

feel free to discuss why you feel that you may not have gotten value for money from professional people (editted, in case I offend anyone else)

[Apollo81]

deleted

[mikeh]

sceptic, on Jun 9 2008, 12:35 PM, said:

feel free to discuss why you think you are ripped of from professional people

Maybe I am overly sensitive, and maybe this was supposed to be funny.. if so, I confess I don't get the joke.

As a professional... as a member of a self-governing profession with a strict Code of Ethics, a detailed Conduct Manual, severe discipline provisions actually enforced, and with a need for a minimum of 6 years post-secondary education (most have 7, I have 8 years of university) and a further year of apprenticeship, known as articling, I take my responsibilities seriously. I can also say, after more than 30 years as a lawyer, that the number of 'rip-offs' I have witnessed have been miniscule.

I am married to a realtor, and can say with confidence that the vast majority of realtors are hard-working people who genuinely care about their clients.

We will always encounter unscrupulous people in every walk of life. There are doctors who murder their patients, or commit sexual assault. There are police officers who plant evidence or accept bribes. There are priests and boy scout leaders who molest children. There are bridge pros who cheat. There are accountants who embezzle, lawyers who participate in fraud, car salesmen who lie about the history of the used car they are selling, and so on.

But most people who pursue lawful vocations are fundamentally honest, decent people. I know and am friends with people in most of the occupations listed.. other than window salesmen and drug dealers. Maybe if Sceptic had such a wide range of friends he might be a little more careful about who he insults.

To make up a list that includes several lawful occupations and 'drug dealers' is insulting.

[pclayton]

I echo Mike's views. I have used many attorneys over the years, and all of them had the utmost ethics. But that isn't what Wayne is asking.

Many of the attorneys I've used have had a 'heavy pencil', especially those at the associate level at big firms. With the desire to make partner, and the pressure for billable hours, its not uncommon for an associate to pad their billings. This isn't a slight on the legal profession at all, but its something I always watch for when reviewing a bill. Whenever I bring this up with the partner in charge, they are very open minded and will usually grant an adjustment.

Realtors? These folks are generally straight-shooters too, but I've witnessed first hand fiduciary violations from listing agents, "The property is $400,000, but offer $380 and I'm sure they'll take it". But its a tough living and I respect this profession.

Drug Dealers? Can't comment.

Glazing salesman? I'll lump these into contractors. When times are good, you better bid out the job, and you better watch the exclusions in the contract. When times are bad and work is few and far-between, these can be some of the most caring and hard working people you will ever meet.

Financial? I wouldn't trust a stock broker to make any kind of recommendation for a stock, or for planning. If my assets were large enough, I would definitely consult with an estate planner and CPA for some good advice.

Athletes? Whatever. They get what the market will bear and I have no beef with it.

Car salesman? With the exception of internet car buying, the process hasn't changed that much. Unless you really know what you are doing, and have the patience to be a grinder, they like to play a shell game between trade-in price, financing and price.

Lifestyle Gurus? Don't know that much, but I think this kind of advice is more beneficial than popping pills. On the other hand, just develop some good friends.

Other? For dubious 'value' (not just individuals, but 'things'), I would add in life insurance agents, high-end furniture and clothing stores, high-end restaurants, most wines over $25/bottle, travel agents, and pharmaceutical companies (including vitamin and herbal vendors). I'm sure there are others.

[mikeh]

sceptic, on Jun 9 2008, 02:01 PM, said:

Quote

Maybe if Sceptic had such a wide range of friends he might be a little more careful about who he insults.

"I did not realise this poll could be taken as an insult "

To make up a list that includes several lawful occupations and 'drug dealers' is insulting.

I happen to know some very nice drug dealers, who would be mortified to be in the same poll as a lawyer, but I am sure they would see the intended humour in my poll

and I am sure I asked value for money, I never questioned anyones ethics.........

Quote

I feel your mild rant, somewhat odd, may be I have asked a question you are uncomfortable with, if so, I won't be losing much sleep tonight.

Now you are becoming personally insulting.

But I won't lose any sleep over your insults

[Apollo81]

I think the OP was trying to say "out of these, which profession has the biggest disparity between typical income earned and income you feel they should earn?" or "who's the most overpaid"

I didn't read anything into the OP having to do with ethics.

[Apollo81]

Lawyers make a lot of money but I don't think they're overpaid. The lawyers my age I know all work whenever they're not eating or sleeping and have huge law school debt, so they should make a lot.

Athletes get paid a lot, but they're a good value for my money since I can watch them for free on TV. Also being a pro athlete basically takes 10-20 years hardcore practice growing up, so they put their time in.

Most of the others fall into "I don't know enough about what they're paid or what they do"

[matmat]

another totally idiotic poll from someone with too much time on their hands

[helene_t]

Weird comments. Say a person of proffesion X sends me a GBP 1000 bill after having provided a service I wouldn't have agreed to pay more than GBP 20 for if I had known how lousy the service would be. Then I would vote for profession X in this poll. This has nothing to do with bad ethics of X-professionals. It may reflect on my failure to assess whether I really need that kind of service, or it may reflect of my failure to asses how costly it will be to provide that service, or it may reflect on supply vs demand, or on some silly price regulation mechanism.

FWIW I would say hairdressers, restaurants and dentist provide good value for money. I have had some bad experiences with lawyers but much more good experiences, and I suppose it's in the nature of their profession that they will sometimes have to charge for a service that turned out to be useless, while a hairdresser's clients can better predict what the service will be worth.

[blackshoe]

I suspect that criminals of many types will give least value for money, because that is the nature of the criminal enterprise - to artificially inflate the value of what they provide. I wouldn't call criminals "professionals", though. Nor salesmen, "lifestyle gurus" or suchlike.

[Al_U_Card]

Can you say "conflict of interest"? Once you place a human in temptation's path.....it is a slippery slope that most cannot resist.

Those with morals and ethics (even if obliged by a professional order (as myself)) are constantly fighting against the trend to the dilution of integrity and the pervasiveness of inequity for personal gain.

[bid_em_up]

I'm surprised "Bridge Pro/Teacher" didnt make the list.

[helene_t]

I wonder why medical statisticians are not on the list. Do you realize how we spend your tax money?

[luke warm]

i'd think drug dealers, being governed as they are by supply and demand, would give good (decent) value for the money charged...

[Winstonm]

Writers of poll questions should top the list.

[helene_t]

Idd Jimmy, all the others are more or less protected by cartels. Maybe life style gurus and car salesmen offer fair prices as well, though.

[blackshoe]

Are drug dealers governed by supply and demand? Certainly the cost on the supply side of doing business is artificially inflated by the problems (from the dealer's viewpoint) caused by laws and law enforcement types. That cost is certainly passed on to the buyer, so from his viewpoint the cost of his drugs is higher - probably a lot higher - than it would be if the drugs weren't proscribed.

[NickRW]

mikeh, on Jun 9 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Maybe I am overly sensitive, and maybe this was supposed to be funny.. if so, I confess I don't get the joke.

As a professional... as a member of a self-governing profession with a strict Code of Ethics...

Stop right there.

1. Some years ago, when we sold our first house, it was a time when house prices were slipping. The house went on the market, as is the custom, at a slightly optimistic asking price. Twice I had to contact the estate agent to suggest that they put the price down - they never suggested this. Never the less there were still no appointments to view. Eventually I got fed up and sold it myself.

2. One of my children is dyslexic. You might have thought that teachers, or some other professional persons assisting teachers, would be able to diagnose this. No. I had educate myself about educational problems in order to find out for myself and tell the school. A year later, after they had decided I was right and changed the child's educational program we went to a parent/teacher evening and one teacher who hadn't really been in the loop earler beamed, "your child is doing so much better after we found out he is dyslexic..." Yeah, right.

3. Various other issues with same school and 2 other previous schools that would have me writing for a long time and get extremely annoyed about.

4. When we sold our last house we originally wanted solicitor x to do the conveyancing work. For some weird reason this solicitor was unnaceptable to the mortgage company, so we had to pick one off their approved list. Hmm. The chain was complete - there was no reason not to move on the legal details with anything other than the utmost haste. Some weeks later, after taking the 3rd somewhat irate and exasperated call from my estate agent that the chain was about to fall apart if we didn't get a bomb under the solicitor, I started throwing my weight about. I found out that the person actually assigned to do the work was moonlighting and stacking up cases. A suggestion to the firm that I should perhaps report this to the law society and suddenly my case was being handled by a senior partner and progressed within half the time the other lady had been sitting on it already. It was all very well that they fixed it - it shouldn't have needed fixing in the first place though.

5. What I regard as a serious case of professional incompetence in the medical profession affecting family member x that I won't go into the personal detail about, except to say that it was another case of I had to tell them what was wrong after they had failed to diagnose something until it was too late.

6. Somewhat similar medical case affecting another family member.

7. Only a week or so ago I got an apology from the regional head of the RSPCA for the rude and unjustified bahaviour of one of their staff. Details unnecessary - they were wrong and had to admit it.

8. Veterinary surgeons that don't even know that guinea pigs are fatally allergic to penicillin is another thing. You'd think that they would know this wouldn't you. Not all of them do. Some of them you have to ask, "what have you got in that syringe" and be prepared to leave with your animal in a hurry.

In other words, don't talk to me about "professionals" with "codes of conduct". I work as a computer consultant. I am not a member of any professional body. If I don't get results, I don't get paid. Simple as that.

Nick

[mike777]

1) I went to law school but never practiced law
2) My Grandfather and a zillion of my inlaws are lawyers...some semi famous....
3) I sold my first house( long ago)..lawyer was a joke..I am 4000 miles away at closing but on phone...lawyer tells me at closing a bunch of silly stuff and if I do not pay more we cannot close...I fire back....1) do not close...2) calling another lawyer to sue now...3) calling your local bar assoc. now.....4) he called me back..we closed........
4) refi house few years ago.....legal documents a joke.....I did not even own the house per the documents.
5) sued in Germany over Mercedes bought in Germany..refused delivery...wrong color...options..etc......after 3 long years won case.....German lawyer was pretty good.
6) sued my ex company again 5000 miles away..huge ny wall street company, very famous.....my lawyer was bad...other lawyer...much worse.......judges...(more than one) complete joke. I won but whole process joke.
7) I was a defendent( along with hundreds) in huge famous case.....my company....not same as above but super famous....great book written about case....I know many players in the book.
Bottom line....i lost zero money but my company lost alot and should have lost alot more......main players in company, sorry to say I knew them at end.....were a joke..complete crooks......super crooks....
8) I know from the famous Enron case 2 lawyers and one accountant.....One lawyer(other not famous but my sister in law and ok, cute and still single ) and the Accountant are semi famous and in my view....100% nice people and not guilty.
9) btw as I write this watching my fav dvd show Perry Mason......from late 1950's