[flytoox]

WGF_Flame, on Mar 23 2004, 10:36 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 23 2004, 04:31 PM, said:

XX
AXX
AKQXX
AXXX


The first hand is not a 3D but a 3N bid.

I am not sure at all that 3nt here is better then 3d.
but just in case put the A of clubs in spades instead.

Even put the club ace in spade suit and you have not club stopper, with this hand 3N is still a much better bid in long run. Yes, you may lose 13 tricks. But as 3N is the most likely game and with such a strong hand without major suit, you should try to bid 3N. This decision is somewhat related to the vul., though. As when Opp are green, 3C can be very broke suit, but when they are red, 3C can be akqxxx.

[slothy]

i have to agree with Ben (begrudgingly of course hee hee...i promise it will never happen again ) and Hoggy

With a regular partnership and you overcall minor suit pre-empts perhaps more aggressively, more currency in using 4♦ more protectively...

HOwever, P is not denying ♣ stopper so if i responding to overcall i may bid honor-studded (just made that phrase up-it sounds kinda kewt) major and give p chance of bidding 3NT....

As p has overcalled a pre-emptor and i got a neat hand - so we got ze points? -more rational to use 4♦ as a fillip to start exploratory process for slam, stopping in game if necessary, rather than teasing p to bid game if he got the right hand over a hand where you are not sure anyway (otherwise you would bid it yourself...)

So, in a nutcase, 4♦ forcing...

PS OSH, at least you got a welcome form inquiry for making your postal baptism i got nada ...think he got a phobia for sloths hee hee)

[WGF_Flame]

flytoox, on Mar 24 2004, 07:20 AM, said:

WGF_Flame, on Mar 23 2004, 10:36 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 23 2004, 04:31 PM, said:

XX
AXX
AKQXX
AXXX


The first hand is not a 3D but a 3N bid.

I am not sure at all that 3nt here is better then 3d.
but just in case put the A of clubs in spades instead.

Even put the club ace in spade suit and you have not club stopper, with this hand 3N is still a much better bid in long run. Yes, you may lose 13 tricks. But as 3N is the most likely game and with such a strong hand without major suit, you should try to bid 3N. This decision is somewhat related to the vul., though. As when Opp are green, 3C can be very broke suit, but when they are red, 3C can be akqxxx.

You are wrong.
Bidding 3nt here would be a mistake.
3D is not a weak bid and there is a good chance that p with a stoper will bid 3nt himself which then will be played from the right side and make.

[WGF_Flame]

The_Hog, on Mar 23 2004, 08:12 PM, said:

"therefore 4d imo should be an invitation to game rather then forcing. "

Look, I sympathise with this viewpoint but there is one major flaw in the argument; by bidding 4D invitational you are gambling on making exactly 10 tricks if partner passes - not 9, not 11. This is trying to stop on the head of a pin. I would rather bid 5 and hope to make on a misdefence if need be. What the posters who advocate 4D being forcing are saying is that we need the extra room to investigate game or slam and that this treatment is more useful than being able to stop at 4m.

The topic is analogous with this sort of sequence:

1D (2S) 2N

where 2n is played as invit, about 10-11 with a S stopper. Again imho this is a futile bid; if pd passes you are gambling that you will make EXACTLY 8 tricks. That is why more and more players are using 2N here in some sort of artificial way - either a raise, or perhaps even as lebensohl. (A treatment popular in Poland).

Ron

I am not saying there is no point in playing 4d as forcing, sure there is a point to it and u have just explained it very well, still imo it is more vital as an invitational bid.
one more resson to play this as invitational is that its a bad abit to give different meaning to more or less same bids, by this i mean that it is not a good idea to play that 3c 3d p 4d will be forcing while 2h 3d p 4d to be invitational, and also to give different interpertations to scoring type (mp/imp) and to vul . this will make it much harder on your memory , so even if i fould it a bit better (which i dont) in a specific case to play 4d forcing that still not a good resson to load more information on my memory. The memory statment is general not about this specific case. Simple is not Stupid.

[mishovnbg]

The_Hog, on Mar 24 2004, 03:12 AM, said:

"therefore 4d imo should be an invitation to game rather then forcing. "

Look, I sympathise with this viewpoint but there is one major flaw in the argument; by bidding 4D invitational you are gambling on making exactly 10 tricks if partner passes - not 9, not 11. This is trying to stop on the head of a pin. I would rather bid 5 and hope to make on a misdefence if need be. What the posters who advocate 4D being forcing are saying is that we need the extra room to investigate game or slam and that this treatment is more useful than being able to stop at 4m.

The topic is analogous with this sort of sequence:

1D (2S) 2N

where 2n is played as invit, about 10-11 with a S stopper. Again imho this is a futile bid; if pd passes you are gambling that you will make EXACTLY 8 tricks. That is why more and more players are using 2N here in some sort of artificial way - either a raise, or perhaps even as lebensohl. (A treatment popular in Poland).

Ron

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------

Hi Ron!

Invit for 5 of minor game is also useful bid, if ofcourse p know about what you invite him. In my opinion raise 4 of minor, if not gf bidded before, mean you have enough strength for game on 5 of minor, but don't have enough KC, because 5 level is likely to slam.

Spoiler

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Misho