[han]

4♥, unanimous.

[P_Marlowe]

4H.

Assuming I am South.

This depends on your requirements about a first
seat green vs. red preempt, for me the hand would
be to strong by 1,5 tricks for a 3H opening, so 4H
is is.
And of course if I happen to opene3H, partner would
not raise with 2 Aces and a couple of tens.
If for what ever reason you have different requirements
for a 3H opening bid, than 3H would be fine.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

awm, on Jun 11 2008, 09:54 PM, said:

I'd bid 3♥, as a conservative preempter.

One question for the 4♥ bidders: would you bid 4♥ if the diamonds were xxx also?
<snip>

Yes, but than we only promise, that we go down at most 4
at thosee colors.
If you happen to play a style, which promises to go down
at most 3 at those colors, you may or may not bid 3H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Edmunte1]

sfbp, on Jun 11 2008, 03:35 PM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: E/W Scoring: IMP

♠ 76 ♥ KQJ9853 ♦ QJ2 ♣ 2

What is your call? Is there game if partner has 2 aces and a couple of 10's?

I think you have started asking yourself too many questions after you've got a bad result opening 4♥. Stop doing that, 4♥ is the percentage bid, stick to the plan . Bridge is a percentage game.

[sfbp]

Edmunte1, on Jun 12 2008, 02:59 AM, said:

I think you have started  asking yourself too many questions after you've got a bad result opening 4♥. Stop doing that, 4♥ is the percentage bid, stick to the plan  . Bridge is a percentage game.

Well that begs the question, doesn't it?

Would you raise 3♥ to 4 on

---

After playing the original hand my vote was to open 1♥ (but see below) but what do I know? I prefer my 3-level preempts in majors to be really weak, and 4 level preempts to be really pure.

Now all the answers are in, I can reveal that the majors were reversed (noone bit on Ben's question!!!!) because people here are very smart. The funny thing is that one pair got to 5♥X (the other way of course) and this hand led out its 2 aces for -850. In the hand I posed this means that the 4♥ preempt would lead to a contract of 4♠X and even with the club ruff it would get made. So think about that folks, does a 4-level opening actually push them too easily into making games?

Turns out it doesn't make nearly as much difference as one might think because, the decision being so close, both 3♠+1 and 4♠= are reasonably middle-ish scores.

What I found interesting was that at the table NOONE opened 4♠ but more than half of the 3♠ openers raised to 4.

It seems like the panel may not represent real life, therefore. Maybe the panel's argument is that 4♥ (on the hand given) is a winning bid. By definition, a winning bid has to be something that does better than the field. Certainly the field is not bidding 4♥ (actually 4♠ but no matter).

The 1 and 2 ♠ openers never made it to game. Top score was the lucky dudes who opened 3 ♠ and played there doubled.

[ASkolnick]

I bid 3♥, but we tend to open preempts much more constructively then most people.

As for the hand given, great. You have a perfect fitting hand (nothing wasted in clubs, no soft values anywhere, no spade values) and it is at best on a finesse. Yay!

There are some advantages to preempting aggressively, but partner can just as easily hold Kx, Qx, QJX of spades or some KQJx of clubs where 4H has no play, but no one is making anything.

But, if partner chooses to bid 4H with this hand, it would not be the end of the world.

[han]

In general I'm much more likely to open 4H with 7 hearts than to open 4S with 7 spades.

[BillHiggin]

sfbp, on Jun 12 2008, 09:08 AM, said:

It seems like the panel may not represent real life,

The panel does not represent a cross section of bridge players. It is dominated by a certain clique (I am not implying that it is an evil clique, but there are bullies that do not entertain opposing views from anything less than famous name players).

The panel tends to be much younger than a cross section of bridge players.
The panel tends to be very much more aggressive than a cross section of bridge players.
The panel tends to be very much better at bridge than a cross section of bridge players.

[mikeh]

Quote

Now all the answers are in, I can reveal that the majors were reversed (noone bit on Ben's question!!!!) because people here are very smart. The funny thing is that one pair got to 5♥X (the other way of course) and this hand led out its 2 aces for -850. In the hand I posed this means that the 4♥ preempt would lead to a contract of 4♠X and even with the club ruff it would get made. So think about that folks, does a 4-level opening actually push them too easily into making games?

I simply don't understand this. You are stating that xxx xx Axxx Axxx has a double of a 4♠ overcall of a white v red 4♥ opening bid? At the risk of being called a bully by BillH ( ), that is absurd. If I held that hand, I'd be bidding 5♥ long before I even considered double... I would rate double as one of the silliest bids I have seen in a long time. I'm not saying I would or wouldn't bid 5♥...given that I 'know' too much about the hand, I doubt that I can be objective now... but I am 100% certain that I would think about 5♥ and never consider what I regard as a utterly foolish double.

As for preempts sometimes pushing the opps to an otherwise unbiddable contract... yes, this happens. As someone wrote earlier, in this thread, bridge is a game of percentages. My view, and apparently that of virtually all who posted here, is that, overall, 4♥ is more likely to cause the opps to do the wrong thing than it is to cause them to go right. I doubt that any of us would dream of arguing that 4♥ will never cause them to get lucky.

[mikestar]

At these colors, anything except 4♥ is unthinkable to me-- the trump quality makes this a sound 3♥ at equal vul with or without the ♦QJx, so at favorable I bid one more.

The doubler desperately needs to read S. J. Simon's Why You Lose at Bridge several times. Calling it a sucker double is being too kind. Two aces and three small trumps opposite a partner advertising zero defense? You don't even have a stiff heart where you might get ♥A and a ruff if partner has the Ace and leads his suit. I expect 4♠X will make 5 most of the time and make 6 more often than it goes down.

At least you won't get redoubled in this auction.

[pclayton]

BillHiggin, on Jun 12 2008, 07:43 AM, said:

The panel tends to be much younger than a cross section of bridge players.

Yes, I think I can attest most of us are younger than 67.

[sfbp]

mikeh, on Jun 12 2008, 07:54 AM, said:

I simply don't understand this. You are stating that xxx xx Axxx Axxx has a double of a 4♠ overcall of a white v red 4♥ opening bid?

Nope.

i mean it started 3S P P X (x by the strong hand)

with the 4H opener it might go 4H P P X P 4S

of course with 4S opener it's more complicated

[mikeh]

sfbp, on Jun 12 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

mikeh, on Jun 12 2008, 07:54 AM, said:

I simply don't understand this. You are stating that xxx xx Axxx Axxx has a double of a 4♠ overcall of a white v red 4♥ opening bid?

Nope.

i mean it started 3S P P X (x by the strong hand)

with the 4H opener it might go 4H P P X P 4S

of course with 4S opener it's more complicated

Then why did you write that 'the 4♥ preempt would lead to a contract of 4♠X'?

[sfbp]

Exactly as I said the posted hand would go 4H p p X p 4S

What I say three times is true! Want me to say it again?

[sfbp]

I apologise Mike. I see what you mean, finally. If the other side can get to 5HX (in real life after 3S opener) its not unreasonable that the side with spades (after HEART opener) could get to 4S. What you are saying is they might not manage to X 4S whereas Xing 5H (on the real hand) was easy. Sure.

[kenrexford]

Sure. Everyone knows that a 4♥ preempt is sometimes a Texas Transfer. However, for every Texas Transfer that is accepted, there are undoubtedly a number of unfortunate results for the cute little opponents. Partner is allowed to have real defense (not two bullets and out).

There is also a real difference between a 4♥ opening and a 4♠ opening. A 4♥ opening is often a weak positional lunge that forces a 4-level decision and provides partner with maximal information for the five-level decision, with fewer downsides. The 4♠ call, in contrast, is more often the final contract and is a call made with some serious positional strength. Switching analysis between the two is clever, but not necessarily a true revelation of the thinking process of "the panel." Although a 4♠ call is not a Texas Transfer, that reality also reduces some potential gains.

Meaning, a 4♥ call occasionally gains by jamming out competition, but it also occasionally gains by inducing unfortunate competition that can be lucratively sent back. A 4♠ call has increased jam potential but also has decreased strike potential.

Further, a 4♥ opening has a greater chance of even a partscore victory. 4♥-1 beats 3♠ making, but 4♠-1 is horrible against 3♥ making, as 3♠ would have been enough and would have made.

[sfbp]

Quote

Everyone knows that a 4♥ preempt is sometimes a Texas Transfer.

I said nothing about Texas. You might be implying something about Namyats, but this pard and I, and probably the majority, don't play it, and there were no 4m openers or lack thereof to cloud the issue since noone opened higher than 3[S]

Quote

Switching analysis between the two is clever, but not necessarily a true revelation of the thinking process of "the panel."

I agree; that wasn't my motive for switching, I simply wanted to avoid post hoc propter hoc analysis. However one pair of opponents did get to 5♥ so it seemed reasonable that one or more might get to 4♠ if I held the hand that 2/3 of the voters said I should open 4♥ (very very far from unanimous despite certain people self-proclaiming unanimity).

In fact 1/3 of the votes (the mostly less vocal minority, and I suspect in reality the silent MAJority) said that even with a heart hand they would open 3♥ not 4♥.

[bid_em_up]

Umm, Steven, it has been said that an opening 4H bid is an automatic transfer to 4S.....by the opposing side.

Thats what Ken is implying.

[sfbp]

Lol, lost on me. Thx.