[jtfanclub]

mike777, on Jun 14 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

On this issue I encourage you to have a polite email/pm/conversation with Jacki, ACBL online, and let us all know the results of your conversation. I have found Jacki to be extremely helpful, polite and proactive with my own TD issues even when I have disagreed with her rulings or point of view.

That's not what I'm looking for.

I'm looking for something officialish, written in electrons, where I can say "in this situation, I should play on, even after calling the director. In this other case, I should wait. These should be handled by ACBL, these others should be handled by Abuse".

This has nothing to do with Jacki, at least not directly. This is about having actual written regulations, instead of people complaining that they get censured when they follow WBF rules.

[Jacki]

Not being fond of flogging I have elected to say out of this, but a few things needs to be made clear.

There are no undos in ACBL games. That's the way it is. All players in a speedball have 14 minutes to play 3 boards. In the case in question, the player wanted to change his bid because of a late alert. We can't do that in our games here.

What we *can* do is adjust a board if we find there is damage because of a late (or no) alert or other infraction. However, we can't adjust a board until there is an outcome. What happened with the board? We can't find danage (or no damage) unless a hand is completed and we can see what happened instead of what might have happened.

The North player refused to bid or play - he wanted to argue. And no amount of urging from me could get him to continue.

Although I felt his pain, I needed the hand to finish so we could arrive at some kind of equity. And my continuing explaintions that I could (and most likely would) adjust the board when it was finished, fell on deaf ears. At the end, this situation took the entire 14 minutes and one board was barely finished. The other two boards were skipped.

That's the way it was and the way it is. Speedballs are fast games and need to be played fast. We can and do adjust for damage. If players want a more traditional game where there's time for philosophical debates on what's pure bridge and how the way we do it sucks, we also offer our regular pairs game. But Speedballs are fast paced and there's no time for long protracted arguing with the director. Finish first and we fix afterwards.

Since the player was minus 200, I reversed the board to average. He didn't like this either. And perhaps I should have given him an average plus. But I didn't.

OK Guys...have at it. You can find me online with the BBO name ACBL with a big round target on my back.

Jacki

[blackshoe]

If them's the rules Jacki, they ought to be published, clear, and available well before the start of the event. (I don't know, maybe they already are, I haven't looked).

If they are published, and a player doesn't look at them, that's his problem.

[Jacki]

Our help files on the current version, I agree, are out of date. Taking this into consideration, the directors state the rules for these games before every ACBL game.

I understand that it may be irritating to see a long list of rules roll by before each game as it starts, but we have learned that if we don't specifically say don't do something, someone will want to do it. It's a thin line we have to trod - that being, get everything clearly stated without overwhelming the players with tons of chat.

However, we're hard at work on the help files for the new upcomming Flash version and you can expect to see clear and extensive rules on just about everything BBO related when that rolls out. At that time, we feel we will be able to cut down on the director spam as the game starts with the hope that everyone will read the rules before playing. If they don't, we will have a easy place to send them to read the rules on anything available on BBO.

Jacki

[sceptic]

Quote

The North player refused to bid or play - he wanted to argue. And no amount of urging from me could get him to continue.

This is a common issue on BBO I find (well more common that I would like to see, in fact quite representative of real life)

some arrogant individual, insisting on their rights, despite the fact they end up inconviniencing lots of other people, why would some one want to hold up two more hands in a game called "speedball" surely the name in itself would indicate what is happening around him or her

another thing, if this was the first ever speed ball they had played in then I suppose you may have some sympathy for their behaviour, BUT, if they had played speedballs before and been playing bridge a long time (which I suspect is the case) then they know what the game is and it is time restricted, the same would apply to regular forum posters that frequent the bash ACBL brigade. they know how difficult it is to do a good TD job in a speedball (due entirely to time constraints) I doubt written rules would have changed this persons attitude and behaviour at the table

I find it a poor show that Jacki has to explain herself her, because some halfwit, decided to ruin everyones fun and then someone has the cheek to whinge about it in public, upsetting the host and various other people

If that person is so concerned about their score in a bridge tourny, they would be better off trying to improve thier game in general, rather than worry about the odd imp lost at a 3 minute a hand game

[blackshoe]

sceptic, on Jun 15 2008, 02:14 AM, said:

some arrogant individual, insisting on their rights, despite the fact they end up inconviniencing lots of other people,

Heh. Several years ago, I got on a plane at Heathrow. The passenger in the seat in front of me sat down and promptly put his seat all the way back, crushing my knees. When I asked him politely to give me a little more knee room, he said indignantly "I have a right!" I replied "I have a right, too, and a left, and you're gonna get 'em both if you don't move this seat." He moved it.

He was an American, btw, as am I.

[sceptic]

haha

[jillybean]

sceptic, on Jun 15 2008, 02:14 AM, said:

some arrogant individual, insisting on their rights, despite the fact they end up inconviniencing lots of other people,

When the opps get into the middle of my auction its inconvenient, I wish you’d make a rule against that too

The laws define the game and protect the players. Some may well regard the laws
as inconvenient and want to play under another set of rules and thats fine but personaly I'd like to play under the existing laws until such a time as the ACBL see fit to change them.

[Old York]

jillybean2, on Jun 15 2008, 09:47 PM, said:

"Some may well regard the laws as inconvenient and want to play under another set of rules"

I have always thought that using Acbl/Wbf/Ebu rules that are designed for f2f Tournaments simply does not make sense for on-line bridge. There are many situations where these rules simply cannot be applied. It is not possible to undo a call. It is not practical to stop play and demand the immediate intervention of Td.
It is not possible to examine your oppo convention card. It is not possible to prove that oppo have an "agreement". The list is endless. Bending the rules to suit our environment is not breaking the rules. Scores can be adjusted, even after the tourney has finished.

Tony (Duke of York)

[blackshoe]

Old York, on Jun 16 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

I have always thought that using Acbl/Wbf/Ebu rules that are designed for f2f Tournaments simply does not make sense for on-line bridge. There are many situations where these rules simply cannot be applied. It is not possible to undo a call. It is not practical to stop play and demand the immediate intervention of Td.
It is not possible to examine your oppo convention card. It is not possible to prove that oppo have an "agreement". The list is endless. Bending the rules to suit our environment is not breaking the rules. Scores can be adjusted, even after the tourney has finished.

Tony (Duke of York)

That it is not possible to undo a call is a fault of the software, not of the laws. Not all that difficult to correct, either, I should think.

Not practical to call the TD? Maybe not, but why is that? Is it because the TD is trying to handle too much? I suspect more than about 40 tables would be too much for any one person. Is there some problem with the software that makes the TD's job more difficult? Is the TD off doing something else when he should be overseeing his game?

If it is not possible to examine your opponent's CC, that's also a fault of the software.

It's not necessarily possible to prove a pair has (or does not have) an agreement in f2f bridge, either. It's also irrelevant, as the laws don't require such proof.

Certainly scores can be adjusted — but that should happen only as provided in the laws, not because "the software won't let me do as the laws say" or "it's too hard", or whatever.

[jtfanclub]

sceptic, on Jun 15 2008, 02:14 AM, said:

I find it a poor show that Jacki has to explain herself her, because some halfwit, decided to ruin everyones fun and then someone has the cheek to whinge about it in public, upsetting the host and various other people

While I am sorry if this ended up upsetting Jacki or wasting a lot of her time, I was very happy to hear about the new ACBL help files. I think this thread was productive, at least in that regard.

[Old York]

Hi

There is a hard-core of bbo forum members who think that it is their job to quote the rules to us all at every conceivable opportunity.

I vote that these members are immediately promoted to "BBO Police" and given the task of patrolling every table on bbo, reporting all infractions of the Rules, Regulations and Guidelines to a newly formed BBO District Attorney, who will fine everyone suspected of any crime a minimum of BBO$1

Anyone agree?

Tony (Duke of York)

[jillybean]

Tony, play what ever game you like using your own rules but please dont come here and tell us that you can't follow the laws of DCB because for the most part, you can.

[Echognome]

Old York, on Jun 16 2008, 08:24 AM, said:

Hi

There is a hard-core of bbo forum members who think that it is their job to quote the rules to us all at every conceivable opportunity.

I vote that these members are immediately promoted to "BBO Police" and given the task of patrolling every table on bbo, reporting all infractions of the Rules, Regulations and Guidelines to a newly formed BBO District Attorney, who will fine everyone suspected of any crime a minimum of BBO$1

Anyone agree?

Tony (Duke of York)

This is a very unfair attack. People often quote the laws because it is evidence that their opinion on the matter is the correct opinion. We can base arguments on logic and persuasion, but we also need to add in credibility. With regards to the play, bidding, or defense, that typically entails turning to expert sources. With regards to the job of the TD, we can either get the opinion of expert TDs or quote from the laws themselves.

Let me throw it back at you Tony. Why don't you give the counter arguments for these claims from the Laws of Online Bridge relevant to ACBL? And lest you think I'm being unfair, Jacki has mentioned there are some rules for playing in ACBL online tournaments.

[uday]

I think we're being trolled

I think - I know - that the best way to complain about (or discuss) a TD ruling in a BBO-ACBL game is via email to acbl@ so that Jacki can look into it. if the complaint is about J, well, feel free to send it there anyway, or to uday@

If the issue turns out to be TD error, why, great, we welcome the opportunity to educate ourselves. If it turns out to be customer error, why, great, we welcome the opportunity to educate the customer.

[babalu1997]

[quote name='blackshoe' date='Jun 16 2008, 09:35 AM'] [/QUOTE]
That it is not possible to undo a call is a fault of the software, not of the laws. Not all that difficult to correct, either, I should think.

Not practical to call the TD? Maybe not, but why is that? Is it because the TD is trying to handle too much? I suspect more than about 40 tables would be too much for any one person. Is there some problem with the software that makes the TD's job more difficult? Is the TD off doing something else when he should be overseeing his game? [/quote]
No it is not practical to call the TD for the reasons outline above and others.

Some tds do not care how many tables they td, because they to not TD, they DJ : posting links to UTUbe. Maybe the solution would be to add a room called DISCO INFERNO.

Some players are pests, they will complain evEry single board, every single board. for those there should be a room called the BOB MARLEY AND THE WAILERS.

Other players not only never alert but they call the TD because the opps alerted and they did not like it (happened to me) For those there should be a room called : DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL.

[Old York]

Hi

Obviously, I was pulling your legs, but Echognome and Uday raise valid points, which I happily concede. We would all like stricter guidelines for online play, they do not have to be rules cast in stone, but many situations cry out for clarification..... and quoting the off-line rules does not seem to help very much.

This thread was entitled " Very poor handling by Acbl TD" I dont believe it was that bad, that the OP should publicly humiliate the TD concerned, and I am not alone in this. I still think that 50% was a fair adjustment, for reasons I have outlined.... but if OP thinks an extra 10% will fulfil his life, then I am happy to lend it to him.

Tony (Old York)

added...

As any game evolves, then so do the rules. Culbertson would not recognise the game we play, and we may even use the 6-suit pack in future.
I am certain that later BboFlash versions will include extra controls and help for td's, like an undo button etc.

[glen]

uday, on Jun 16 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

I think - I know - that the best way to complain about (or discuss)  a TD ruling in a BBO-ACBL game is via email to acbl@ so that Jacki can look into it.  if the complaint is about J, well, feel free to send it there anyway, or to uday@

I suggest you pin (and lock of course ) a new thread to this forum with this information (got a problem with ACBL BBO - email acbl and they will help you...).

Here are two recent tourney starts:

Quote

♠♥ Hello everyone, welcome to the ACBL Speedball tournament ♥
♠♥ Please remember that this is an ACBL-sanctioned game
♠♥ Remember - your profile is NOT a convention card  You are required to post your convention card, or play the basic SAYC one that is provided by default on BBO
♠♥ ONLY the ACBL General Convention Chart applies. This means NO Multi, NO Wilkosz, and NO mid-chart  ♠♥
♠♥ Please be nice to your partner and opponents - this is a ZERO TOLERANCE event
♠♥ Please remember that on BBO you must SELF ALERT and SELF EXPLAIN everything
♠♥ Please give a full explanation. A name of a convention is NOT enough
♠♥ Please avoid talking during bidding and play but if you must do so  speak only English which is the official language in ACBL games.
♠♥ Special reminder: 4.5 minutes per board, so play fast and claim even faster
♣♦ This is the speedball so you have an obligation to play to time - do not automatically expect an adjustment if you do not finish in time.  Defenders can use the claim button ...
   too
♠♥ And most important: good luck to you all, and have fun

-- --

   Hi all!!!  your convention card will default to SAYC if it is not set to something else.
   remember, multi is not allowed
   alert every alertable bid, please explain in the box before bidding.
   speak only ENGLISH at your table, and don't do it during the play or bidding.
   please be nice to your partner and your opps.
   play fast, you only have 4.5 minutes per board.

Given the above, they would not know to email acbl if they have a concern.

As I noted before the TD handled it well - this was just a communication issue on the player learning how problems were handled by the TD in speedballs.

Btw when I see the Multi etc. annoucement, it is tempting to invent a GCC legal convention called Milkosz.

[mycroft]

One thing that comes to mind: sometimes it isn't "turn a good contract into a bad one", it's "turn a good call into a complete misdescription of my hand".

For me, 1NT-2D-2H means one thing if 2D is diamonds, and *a totally different thing* if 2D is majors. So, partner isn't going to take 2H as "to play" (which is what I mean it; transfer to spades in OP's system) in this auction, he's going to take it as GI Stayman, knowing we'll be playing against a 4-1 break (yeah, it could be 5-0. Them's the breaks sometimes). Needless to say, this isn't going to score well...

Adjustment? What do you do? "Play on and we'll look to adjust later"? Oh yeah, that'll be fun. Playing an absolutely hopeless 3NT opposite a totally unsuitable dummy is an absolute waste of time, but I can't just claim -9 to get on to the next board and count on an adjustment, because that will look like I just got frustrated and didn't "play bridge" which may void my adjustment. Everything actually *is* easier here if the Laws are followed, the *TD* implements the undo, and lets the 2H bidder build a correct auction. Of course, by the time the TD gets there, we've lost a board...

I realize that ACBL online TDs, especially speedball TDs, have a horrible job, and the last thing they need is a complicated MI ruling. But sometimes complicated MI rulings happen. I don't have a solution. I'm sorry - the TDs have all my sympathy. But so does the OP (although failing to follow the TDs instructions, even if it puts him into an impossible situation, lowers my sympathy a great deal).

[pigpenz]

uday, on Jun 16 2008, 12:44 PM, said:

I think we're being trolled

what I find interesting here is that vast majority of people responding on this thread dont even play in the ACBL BBO games