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negative double is it natural bid ?

#1 User is offline   deleon 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 09:28

The negative double.. Is it natural bid or part of conventions ??
Playing a hand against a pair with yellow stars (on first table) , I experienced the following:
My partner oppened 1H, my right opp bade 2d.. I held 5 diamonds with kj and 10 points. I doubled and all pass. hand was very bad (500-800 cannot remember) for opponents. opp X called TD ( discussion was screened from my P and me).
After a while TD asked me why i did not ALERT my X. I was stunned. My answer is that I never alert perfectly natural bids, moreover nobody asked me what my double means during the bidding. result is not important.. TD adjusted for something and as crown of all i was discarded from TU as criminal.
The question is obvious Is the penalty double natural bid or not ??
personaly (after 40 years of bridge playing, including international tournaments),
that nonalerted double must be considered penalty (after opps overcall), because
if opposite, 2/3 of Bridge History must be erased all rules rewriten.
moreover alerting penalty double "striptize" doubler's hand which is illegal info for opps. and so one..
One thing more.. very often.. after second or third round of bidding, one of players asks for first or second bid explanation ... That is impossible in "live " bridge TU's.. and often provokes the whole constructive bidding around the table..
players have invented the row of artificial answers too.. to be legal and give nothing..
My sugestion is ( I am not alone for sure) that asking should be obtained before next bid.. AS WELL.. as UNDO requesting.
radmilo savic
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 09:37

Law 20F.1:

Quote

During the auction and before the final pass, any player, at his own turn to call, may request  a full explanation of the opponents' auction (questions may be asked about calls actually made or about relevant calls available but not made).


It's clear that opponents may ask about the meaning of any call, alerted or not alerted, at any point in the auction. It doesn't matter if several subsequent calls have been made.

As to whether a penalty double is alertable, alert regulations are highly dependent on the sponsoring organization. Different countries have different alert rules, etc. On bridgebase, it is really up to the director what alert rules to follow. Since on bridgebase partner will never see your alerts, I recommend alerting any bid that might be unexpected by the opponents -- you will never get in trouble for over-alerting (since partner isn't getting any information) but you could easily get in trouble for under-alerting (since even if a call isn't alertable where you usually play, it might be alertable where the director usually directs).

Basically there are two approaches to alert regulations: (1) alert bids that are not natural (2) alert bids that are not "standard." Under the first policy, a negative double would be alertable because the "natural" meaning of double is penalty. Under the second policy, a penalty double would be alertable because virtually no modern set of methods includes penalty doubles of the opponents one-level suit bids. Certainly in the US a penalty double of a one-level suit bid or overcall would be considered alertable.
Adam W. Meyerson
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#3 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 10:23

awm, on Jun 9 2008, 10:37 AM, said:

Law 20F.1:

Quote

During the auction and before the final pass, any player, at his own turn to call, may request  a full explanation of the opponents' auction (questions may be asked about calls actually made or about relevant calls available but not made).


It's clear that opponents may ask about the meaning of any call, alerted or not alerted, at any point in the auction. It doesn't matter if several subsequent calls have been made.

As to whether a penalty double is alertable, alert regulations are highly dependent on the sponsoring organization. Different countries have different alert rules, etc. On bridgebase, it is really up to the director what alert rules to follow. Since on bridgebase partner will never see your alerts, I recommend alerting any bid that might be unexpected by the opponents -- you will never get in trouble for over-alerting (since partner isn't getting any information) but you could easily get in trouble for under-alerting (since even if a call isn't alertable where you usually play, it might be alertable where the director usually directs).

Basically there are two approaches to alert regulations: (1) alert bids that are not natural (2) alert bids that are not "standard." Under the first policy, a negative double would be alertable because the "natural" meaning of double is penalty. Under the second policy, a penalty double would be alertable because virtually no modern set of methods includes penalty doubles of the opponents one-level suit bids. Certainly in the US a penalty double of a one-level suit bid or overcall would be considered alertable.

But it's two level, and lots of people have a penalty X over the 2 level available in some auctions. This is not clear, but I would certainly say that a penalty X over 2 is alertable in the U.S.

http://www.acbl.org/...procedures.html

However, some directors are overeager to adjust. You're certainly allowed to play the X as penalty. I would not have adjusted in this case....

From the link above:
"Players who, by experience or expertise, recognize that their opponents have neglected to Alert a special agreement will be expected to protect themselves.

Adjustments for violations are not automatic."

After the 2 X P P, a player should be smart enough to ask what the X meant. A star player should definitely be smart enough to ask what the X meant. If they found out then that the X was penalty, I'd back up the auction and let the overcaller's partner make a call if he so desired. Even if we didn't use an undo, it's not difficult at that point to fix the auction.

To say I dislike doubleshots is an understatement. This looks like a double-shot to me.
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#4 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 10:30

Quote

As to whether a penalty double is alertable, alert regulations are highly dependent on the sponsoring organization. Different countries have different alert rules, etc. On bridgebase, it is really up to the director what alert rules to follow.


What he said.

For example, in England currently a penalty double of a 2D overcall would be alertable.

(Although this may change fairly soon)
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#5 User is offline   babalu1997 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 10:48

deleon, on Jun 9 2008, 10:28 AM, said:

My partner oppened 1H, my right opp bade 2d.. I held 5 diamonds with kj and 10 points. I doubled and all pass. hand was very bad (500-800 cannot remember) for opponents. opp X called TD ( discussion was screened from my P and me).

shoot the TD lol.
I always alert my negative double-- PROMISES NO SHAPE.
Partner can do what ever he pleases with the double.

But, it is true, that experienced players should rise to the occasion and nid their hands.

i remember once playing against a yellow star at the main club-- who might have been playing with a student, the auction went


1h by the student-
2h michaels cuebid by my pick up partner-
pass by star player-
PASS BY ME -- WELL I HELD KQJTX of hearts and some defensive tricks in other suits
double by the student
pass by my partner


LONG PAUSE BY THE STAR PLAYER WHO DECIDED TO TEACH ME WHAT THE MICHAELS CUEBID WAS AND WHY I SHOULD BID SOMETHING

o SAID I WANTED TO PASS, SHE PASSED

I PLAYED 2H DOUBLED MAKING OVER TRICK FOR A TOP-- PARTNER HAD THE ACE OF HEARTS LOL

the star player did leave telling partner they should not play against **such people**

i think he/she meant intelligent people lol.

View PostFree, on 2011-May-10, 03:57, said:

Babalu just wanted a shoulder to cry on, is that too much to ask for?
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#6 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 13:28

deleon, on Jun 9 2008, 05:28 PM, said:

and as crown of  all i was discarded from TU as criminal.

In which country did this happen??
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 14:52

It is prudent to alert such a penalty double but probably not an infraction not to do it, unless tourney rules say so explicitly.
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#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 13:26

Alert regulations are there to point out to opponents that your bid means something they might not expect. The rules depend on country, because every country has it's own 'usual methods'. For example, playing Polish Club is standard in Poland, while it's nowhere near to standard in other countries.

These days, the standard is that doubles are for takeout. At 4-level, and maybe at 3-level you could have a discussion about this, but at 2-level almost nobody plays penalty doubles. So if you do, you have the obligation to point this out to your opponents since they won't expect this.

This being said, I play penalty doubles at 2-level with only 1 partner (because he likes it that way). We pre-alert so opps are warned that they shouldn't intervene on crap :)
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#9 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 13:28

Free, on Jun 11 2008, 08:26 PM, said:

This being said, I play penalty doubles at 2-level with only 1 partner (because he likes it that way). We pre-alert so opps are warned that they shouldn't intervene on crap :)

I would be more likely to intervene on crap against opps who have ineffective defense against overcalls, and I believe penalty doubles are ineffective.
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#10 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 13:31

helene_t, on Jun 11 2008, 08:28 PM, said:

Free, on Jun 11 2008, 08:26 PM, said:

This being said, I play penalty doubles at 2-level with only 1 partner (because he likes it that way).  We pre-alert so opps are warned that they shouldn't intervene on crap  :)

I would be more likely to intervene on crap against opps who have ineffective defense against overcalls, and I believe penalty doubles are ineffective.

I agree that penalty doubles suck! I disagree with the rest, because we still have decent constructive methods...
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
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