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Excellent slam

#1 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 05:33

S: 6S
Lead: DQ

First, please note that this is a topic in the B/I forum, so if you are advanced or better, either refrain from replying or do it with hidden text.

South opens 1NT and through a transfer sequence he arrives in the excellent 6♠. West leads ♦Q.

Plan the play ...

1. In a team match.
2. At matchpoints.

Roland
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#2 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 06:27

Spoiler

"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#3 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 06:30

I'm not convinced that this is the answer you are looking for, but in the vast majority of matchpointed games I would take the same line at both mps and teams.
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#4 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-22, 07:38

I don't agree with either ken or frances's lines in MP lol
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#5 User is offline   ArcLight 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 07:47

Spoiler

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#6 User is offline   georgeac 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:01

For Teams:
I take the Q♦ and play low ♠ putting in the 10♠. If East wins either the K♠ or J♠ I win lead and play a low spade again from my hand to dummy.. If W shows out on the second round and spades are 3-1. I believe this is down on any line. If W produces a spade then I play the A♠ as they are breaking 2-2.

For MP:
I would take the same line as I don't see a better one.
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#7 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:04

Spoiler

"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#8 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:07

kenrexford, on May 22 2008, 07:27 AM, said:

Spoiler

Ken, Sabine Auken's book has a similar, but slightly different suit:

AQTxxxx opposite xx, at matchpoints.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:08

georgeac, on May 22 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

For Teams:
I take the Q♦ and play low ♠ putting in the 10♠. If East wins either the K♠ or J♠ I win lead and play a low spade again from my hand to dummy.. If W shows out on the second round and spades are 3-1. I believe this is down on any line. If W produces a spade then I play the A♠ as they are breaking 2-2.

For MP:
I would take the same line as I don't see a better one.

Teams: your line loses when RHO has ♠J stiff, while there is a line that wouldn't go down on this layout (plus every other layout your line of play can handle).

MP: why lose a trick against Kx - Jx?
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#10 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:09

georgeac, on May 22 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

If W produces a spade then I play the A♠ as they are breaking 2-2.

If West produces a ♠, he could have 3, so your line loses against:
West Kxx - East J
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#11 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:12

Free, on May 22 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

MP: why lose a trick against Kx - Jx?

I think you forgot

Kxx - J
KJ - xx

I know I agree with Justin's lines although he didn't state any .... well, he did between the lines (pun intended).

Roland
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#12 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:32

Interesting I have been thinking about this a lot and after low to the queen losing to the king there is another, way more compelling reason to play the ace next (despite being the right percentage play by a small amount).

Suppose Frances and her groupies are in your field, taking safety plays left and right. If RHO had stiff king they have ALREADY beat you even if you hook the next round, because they are losing NO tricks to that holding. Thus if you hook next you are letting them beat you on KJ tight on right AND stiff K on right, both times by one trick. If you play the ace next you're tying them on KJ tight and just letting them beat you on stiff K on right, just this time by TWO tricks. Sorry if this was obvious but I had never thought about it, cool.
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#13 User is online   paulg 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:35

If there is disagreement between Ken, Frances and Justin then perhaps this problem should not be in the B/I forum!

p
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#14 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:38

cardsharp, on May 22 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

If there is disagreement between Ken, Frances and Justin then perhaps this problem should not be in the B/I forum!

p

Part one is indeed relevant to B/I'ers. Perhaps the matchpoint aspect should have been somewhere else.

Roland
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#15 User is offline   brianshark 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:40

Spoiler


Edited after Justin's quote for clarity.
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is.
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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:42

cardsharp, on May 22 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

If there is disagreement between Ken, Frances and Justin then perhaps this problem should not be in the B/I forum!

p

I can demonstrate for sure that ken's line is wrong, but trying to demonstrate that Frances is wrong (or right) is just way too complicated. There are too many variables including:

How many people are in game?
How many people are in GRAND?
How many people are in 6N?
How are the people in 6S playing the hand (of the 3 possible lines)? What percentage is taking each line?
How are the people in 6N playing the hand?

Another interesting excersize is if you are in 6N, how should you be playing it? In an ideal world you will play it exactly like the declarers in 6S unless such a substantial amount of people are in game that you should always safety play.

But tbh I really just think almost everyone will find 6S on this hand. I get Frances's initial point (that so many people will be in game in a lot of fields that you should maximize your chance of making 6S), but I just cant see this hand as being that difficult. Even in a club game south will open 1N and north will probably transfer and bid blackwood. Or in a wk NT country south will rebid 1N and north will bid gerber or something lol.
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#17 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:46

brianshark, on May 22 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

Spoiler

If only 25 % of the field is in slam then you have clearly taken the wrong line to go for the overtrick in all scenarios.

I have to play a tournament today but later I will try to post some cutoff numbers for what %age of declarers need to be in 6S before it's right to go for the overtrick, simplifying it by assuming no one is in 7S and no one is in 6N (only 6S or 4S), and making some assumptions on how declarer will play in 6S.
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#18 User is offline   brianshark 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:46

Sorry, I meant to say that only 25% of the field are only in game! ;)
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is.
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#19 User is offline   georgeac 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 08:54

I think I understand now.
In teams it is best to play A first and then 10 back for the safety play.
If they are 2-2 this line will always only produce one losing trick.
If it is Kxx - J this line will also work.
If it is J - Kxx this line still works.
I think that if it is x - KJx you are always down on any line still.

In MP to play for the over trick is best, by winning Q♦ and playing low to the Q♠. If it wins and E shows the J♠, you play back to hand and play another low spade and finesse W again. If E does not show the J♠, you play the A second time around. If it is Kx - Jx it will produce an over trick. If it is Kxx - J you will win an over trick. You will still make 6 on the other layouts except x - KJx.
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#20 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-May-22, 09:03

Jlall, on May 22 2008, 03:32 PM, said:

Interesting I have been thinking about this a lot and after low to the queen losing to the king there is another, way more compelling reason to play the ace next (despite being the right percentage play by a small amount).

Suppose Frances and her groupies are in your field, taking safety plays left and right. If RHO had stiff king they have ALREADY beat you even if you hook the next round, because they are losing NO tricks to that holding. Thus if you hook next you are letting them beat you on KJ tight on right AND stiff K on right, both times by one trick. If you play the ace next you're tying them on KJ tight and just letting them beat you on stiff K on right, just this time by TWO tricks. Sorry if this was obvious but I had never thought about it, cool.

I like this analysis.
(I'm not sure if I like the idea of groupies or not)
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