[hrothgar]

IMPS
White v Red

You're playing like crap in a tournament when the following hand comes up

♠ KJ54
♥ 5
♦ AJ874
♣ K86

LHO deals and the auction starts

(2♥) - P - (3♥) - ???

Question 1

Do you take action (presumably double)?

Question 2

Assume that you decide to pass. The auction continues

(2♥) - P - (3♥) - P
(P) - X - (P) - ???

What's your call?

[FrancesHinden]

1. Yes, double
2. Why is this not a penalty double? Why would I do anythng other than pass?

[whereagles]

1. dbl, routine
2. 4S, same

[FrancesHinden]

Jlall, on May 20 2008, 02:50 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on May 20 2008, 08:33 AM, said:

2. Why is this not a penalty double?  Why would I do anythng other than pass?

Because some people would like to bid this way with KQxx xxx Axxx Kx, and because you don't have a penalty X that often on this auction.

Not saying that's what X should be, but you asked!

KQxx xxx Axxx Kx
surely partner only wants to double on that hand in case we forgot to act over 3H.

Now, saying that partner might like to bid this way with

Kxxxx - Kxxxx xxx

makes a lot more sense to me, but my heart shortage makes this unlikely.

Anyway I've had a penalty double on this auction a couple of times and I've never had this random weak NT with 3 low hearts that wants to act.

[whereagles]

FrancesHinden, on May 20 2008, 02:08 PM, said:

Anyway I've had a penalty double on this auction a couple of times and I've never had this random weak NT with 3 low hearts that wants to act.

nag pard for not doubling in front of you

[helene_t]

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that
(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p
(p)-x
is t/o while
(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p
(p)-x
is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

[whereagles]

helene_t, on May 20 2008, 02:12 PM, said:

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that
(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p
(p)-x
is t/o while
(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p
(p)-x
is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

Actually, it just stroke me you're absolutely right. If one is to abide by Robson/Segal's book, the rules for delayed doubles are:

"Delayed doubles are for take-out of the second suit (penalty over the 1st suit), except when RHO has opened and pard took positive action in his turn."

In this case pard did NOT take positive action in his turn, so this is take-out of the 2nd suit and penalty of the first. Since there is no 2nd suit, the only interpretation left is "penalty of the first".

Therefore Frances was completely right: playing Robson/Segal, this is a penalty double!!!

[helene_t]

Wow, is even
(1♣)-p-(2♣)-p
(p)-x
penalty? I would never have guessed that!

I think I recall one problem from the "Ladderpuzzel" (Dutch MSC) where
(1♥)-p-(2♥)-p
(p)-x
was described a t/o, minor-oriented, while 2♠ would be t/o with 4 spades (because a hand worth a balancing 2♠ here would have overcalled at first turn).

[helene_t]

I suppose they overcall 2♠ immediately if they are too old for 4♠ Btw partner has 15 points and a singleton hearts so he might have bid something.

No seriously, I can understand that
1♠-1NT
2♠
can get doubled for penalties since they could be in a 6-0 fit, but after responder have raised, playing 5-card majors, surely they must have a fit?

[FrancesHinden]

helene_t, on May 20 2008, 03:12 PM, said:

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that
(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p
(p)-x
is t/o while
(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p
(p)-x
is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

I don't think you can assume anything, these sequences are very murky.
My system file says that

- After a 1-level opening and a raise, double by second seat is take-out up to 3H, penalties above that.

- After a pre-empt and a raise, double by second seat is penalties

I'm not necessarily claiming this is best, because these sequences are actually pretty rare whatever the double means, just that at least by having an agreement we can double on some hands rather than none.

The other day we realised we didn't know how we played 1S - P - 1NT - P - 2S - x; as justin says this is 'traditionally' penalties but many other 'traditional' penalty doubles we play as take-out.

[whereagles]

helene_t, on May 20 2008, 02:27 PM, said:

Wow, is even
(1♣)-p-(2♣)-p
(p)-x
penalty? I would never have guessed that!

I think I recall one problem from the "Ladderpuzzel" (Dutch MSC) where
(1♥)-p-(2♥)-p
(p)-x
was described a t/o, minor-oriented, while 2♠ would be t/o with 4 spades (because a hand worth a balancing 2♠ here would have overcalled at first turn).

According to R/S, yes:

1♣ p 2♣ p
p .. X = THE REAL KQJT9 O'CLUBS

Of course, the RS definition can be perfected. I don't think it makes much sense to play all the sequences you've shown as penalty.

[david_c]

Jlall, on May 20 2008, 03:21 PM, said:

helene_t, on May 20 2008, 09:12 AM, said:

More generally, when is a delayed dbl on a raise penalty? Can I assume that
(1♠)-p-([2♠)-p
(p)-x
is t/o while
(1♣)-p-([3♣)-p
(p)-x
is penalty? I.e. t/o at the 2-level and penalty at the 3-level?

Nobody plays these Xs as t/o imo.

Er, Justin, could you please correct your typo before everyone gets thoroughly confused?

[helene_t]

Thanks David but it's too late, everyone except Frances is confused by now. Well I should only speak for myself I suppose.