[el mister]

I've had some bad results recently opening 5-3-3-2 hands, 12-14pts. In the Acol system I'm playing (learning), weak NT = 12-14 but 5M-3-3-2, 12-14 gets opened 1M. Can I check that this is standard?

It seems to present a rebid problem, where you're really hoping that partner gives you some support back, otherwise you don't have many options. Say you hold ♠AKXXX♥JXX♦QXX♣KX - would you open this 1♠ rather than 1NT? Do you assess the suit quality, or just open whatever 5CM if you're 13hcp balanced? WHat about if partner is a passed hand?

I guess what I am not clear on is why you don't use the 1NT opener, since it is a brilliantly descriptive bid. Partner can then use a variety of bids to show a strong hand, find a fit, or even rescue the contract if they've got absolutely nothing. I'm not getting why 1M is superior when there is no obvious second suit to re-bid.

Thanks for any advice

[whereagles]

I think it's standard to open 5332s 12-14 with 1M. You can, however, put those hands into the 1NT opener without much trouble. There are a lot of ways to dig out the 53 fits afterwards.

[hotShot]

Opening 5M332 hands 1M is standard.
I fail to see where your problem is, your opening bid promises 4 cards in that suit, so with weak hands (12-14) you can rebid 2M showing your 5th card.

Note that your partner will respond 1NT with weak 6-9(10) hands that you should pass.

If your partner responds 2m he is stronger and will find a bid over your 2M rebid.

If you open 1♥ and your partner responds 1♠, you can opt to rebid 1NT.

[el mister]

hotShot, on May 13 2008, 01:54 PM, said:

If you open 1♥ and your partner responds 1♠, you can opt to rebid 1NT.

Thanks for the replies.

Interested in this last point hotShot. I've been treating the 1NT rebid showing 15-16pts as set in stone - it makes sense to bend it a little in this case?

[karlson]

The biggest reason that you open them 1M is that on many hands when partner is too weak to bid over 1N, 2M will be a much better contract (most hands with 3-card support).

It' pretty standard, as far as I know, that 1♥-1♠-1NT shows 12-16, just like in a strong NT system.

[brianshark]

I'm no weak NT expert, but I've heard that one of the biggest advantages of playing a weak NT is the increased frequency of opening 1NT, and opening most 5M332 hands 1NT works well.

[hotShot]

el mister, on May 13 2008, 09:05 PM, said:

I've been treating the 1NT rebid showing 15-16pts as set in stone - it makes sense to bend it a little in this case?

Your partner will bid 3/2 NT if hes strong enough and that might get you in trouble. So you should be careful.

But if you hold 14 HCP and your ♠ suit is worth 4-5 tricks and you stop the minors, you can expect partner to stop ♥. This should be enough to make 7-8 tricks in NT, if opps can't pull to many tricks before you can.

[helene_t]

If you open 1♥ and p bids 1♠, you could rebid 2m on a 3-card or you could raise spades on a 3-card, but neither is particularly attractive, especially raising, since you may fail to find the 5-3 hearts fit if you first find the 3-4 spades fit. Also if you play Cascade's method:
1M-2m
2M-2NT*
as forcing, I think you may have a problem with your 3rd bid if you start by bidding your major-suit 5-card twice.

Those issues nonwithstanding you can do whatever you feel most comfortable with. FWIW I almost always open 1NT. Not in 3rd seat but then again I prefer to play a 14-16 1NT in 3rd seat, and doing that I would open 1NT if in range.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the way I learned it, you should look at the quality of the suit.
If you open 1M, you have to rebid 2M.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cascade]

helene_t, on May 14 2008, 08:32 AM, said:

If you open 1♥ and p bids 1♠, you could rebid 2m on a 3-card or you could raise spades on a 3-card, but neither is particularly attractive, especially raising, since you may fail to find the 5-3 hearts fit if you first find the 3-4 spades fit. Also if you play Cascade's method:
1M-2m
2M-2NT*
as forcing, I think you may have a problem with your 3rd bid if you start by bidding your major-suit 5-card twice.

Those issues nonwithstanding you can do whatever you feel most comfortable with. FWIW I almost always open 1NT. Not in 3rd seat but then again I prefer to play a 14-16 1NT in 3rd seat, and doing that I would open 1NT if in range.

This is a good point and we solve this by opening all 5M332 hands within range 1NT (and rebidding NTs with all similar hands outside the no trump range).

My feeling is that this choice is mostly about swings and round-abouts. You win some by having these hands in your 1NT - you open 1NT more frequently; you improve the definition of your 1M openings and rebids; you give less information to the opponents when you open 1NT - but you also lose some - missing 5=3 major fits; compromising on system to find the 5=3 major fits means you miss other options; partner has less information when on lead after the opponents interfere about your best suit.

My method for finding the 5=3 fit is to utilize a 3♦ rebid by responder after Stayman to ask about a five-card major (or three-card major since we Stayman with 5-3 either way in the majors with game force values). Obviously this method only works when we have game force values hence we will miss some 5=3 fits with invitational values or no game interest.

1NT 2♣
2♦ 3♦ asks where is your three card major

1NT 2♣
2♥ 3♦ asks for five hearts or three (or four) spades

1NT 2♣
2♠ 3♦ asks for five spades or three hearts

[NickRW]

el mister, on May 13 2008, 07:05 PM, said:

Interested in this last point hotShot. I've been treating the 1NT rebid showing 15-16pts as set in stone - it makes sense to bend it a little in this case?

It varies. I think they mainly teach that the 1N rebid shows 15-16 these days - indeed that is exactly what is on the "No Fear Bridge Crib Sheet" that some teachers recommend and which is freely downloadable.

Having said that some employ a more wide ranging 1N rebid - but they usually only do this if they also employ the Crowhurst convention (similar to, but not quite the same as "checkback" I think in the US - someone correct me if I'm wrong).

You can also elect to include these 5M332 types in your 1N opening, but you'll probably then want to employ some variety of 5 card stayman in your responses.

They're all workable options IMO. Some have opinions that one is better than the other - but I haven't yet seen a really convincing argument.

Nick

[the hog]

Opening 12-14 5332 hands with one of a Major used to be standard when some players panicked abot having a 5 card major in a NT opening. Most enlightened players now include these shapes in the NT opening.
This was accepted by modern Acol players in Oz at least 20 years ago. Don't worry, it makes bidding FAR easier. And you don't have to bid a non existent 3 card suit which is totally misdescrining your hand, - showing an unbalanced 5-4 when you have nothing like that.

[andy_h]

karlson, on May 14 2008, 05:09 AM, said:

It' pretty standard, as far as I know, that 1♥-1♠-1NT shows 12-16, just like in a strong NT system.

Not a big Acol fan myself, but this I haven't heard of? 12-16 seems like a pretty big range. When I did play Acol once upon a time, a 1NT rebid shows the strong NT. I hated auctions though that started 1M-2x-2NT which was like a huge 15-19(20) range.

[EricK]

There is no "standard" in Acol - fashions coma and go like dust in the wind. In the old days everybody used to open these hands 1M. Nowadays more and more people are opening them 1NT.

A useful principle to bear in mind is that if a hand is only worth one bid make the most descriptive bid.

[david_c]

EricK, on May 14 2008, 06:27 AM, said:

There is no "standard" in Acol - fashions come and go like dust in the wind. In the old days everybody used to open these hands 1M. Nowadays more and more people are opening them 1NT.

Right. Though I believe it is still true that people learning to play bridge will be taught to open the major.

Personally I nearly always open 1♠ with 5 spades. With hearts I open 1♥ if I am prepared to raise a 1♠ response to 2♠; otherwise I open 1NT. (So always 1NT with 2533.)

Of the players who always open the major, I believe that most of them rebid 2♥ after 1♥-1♠. I know this looks bad, but that's Acol for you. 1NT shows a strong NT hand.

[helene_t]

david_c, on May 14 2008, 11:09 AM, said:

Personally I nearly always open 1♠ with 5 spades. With hearts I open 1♥ if I am prepared to raise a 1♠ response to 2♠; otherwise I open 1NT. (So always 1NT with 2533.)

Of the players who always open the major, I believe that most of them rebid 2♥ after 1♥-1♠. I know this looks bad, but that's Acol for you. 1NT shows a strong NT hand.

But raising responder's suit suggests a better hand if you play Acol than if you play SA since it will typically be based on either a 15-16 balanced hand or a singleton somewhere. Besides it should not be necessary to raise spades on three after having opened 1♥ since a 35(41) can just bid the minor. Responder will expect 4-card support and either shortness in a minor or extra HCPs. So raising on 3 with a balanced minimum wouldn't be my choice.

As for
1♥-1♠
2♥
on a 5-card, yes I have seen that as well. I don't know why they don't bid a minor 3-card instead. Maybe a rudiment from the old days when people would open 1M with 4M5m so responder would not take a false preference with 2M3m.

[hotShot]

Since this is the B/I section, we should discus the textbook treatments.

Acol is a 4-card system, meaning you should open 4+ card majors (4cM) as 1M. Suggesting to move 5M332 into 1NT, is in fact suggesting not to play Acol.
You create a system with strong 1-level bids (because all weak balanced and semibalanced hands are opened 1NT). Even if that were a superior system, it's not Acol.

The textbook treatment is to open 1M and to rebid 2M if weak (12-14) and 5332.
We could point that Swiss Acol requires 1♠ to have 5 cards to avoid that problem in ♠.

[helene_t]

The EBU Standard English Acol System File http://www.u3acostadelsol.org/downloads/Br...lSystemFile.pdf
says you should open 1NT open only with a bad 5-card major. Henderson's book says the same (his style is fairly far away from English standard, though, but may be close to Scottish standard).

[the hog]

sorry double post

[the hog]

hotShot, on May 14 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

Since this is the B/I section, we should discus the textbook treatments.

Acol is a 4-card system, meaning you should open 4+ card majors (4cM) as 1M. Suggesting to move 5M332 into 1NT, is in fact suggesting not to play Acol.
You create a system with strong 1-level bids (because all weak balanced and semibalanced hands are opened 1NT). Even if that were a superior system, it's not Acol.

The textbook treatment is to open 1M and to rebid 2M if weak (12-14) and 5332.
We could point that Swiss Acol requires 1♠ to have 5 cards to avoid that problem in ♠.

Wrong! Reese and Schapiro frequently opened 1NT with this shape. Just looked up some old hands - the Sharples twins did also, it seems.