[jillybean]

 -     1♣    Pass  1♥
 2♠    Dbl*   Pass  3♦
*support 

game try or game forcing?

I tend to take 'rules' to the extreme and perhaps what I should be noting is a new suit at 3lvl is gf after a 2/1

[jtfanclub]

Nevermind! Didn't realize it was a support double.

[jillybean]

Edited, the double is a support double

[rogerclee]

1) I don't think you should play support doubles up to 2♠. 2♥ is high enough.

2) I think this is a game try without discussion.

[mike777]

yes, technically support doubles only through 2h but I got one or two crazy partners who played it through 2s.

Given that this thread says support x then:

3d should be natural and NF here I think,responder only promises 4H and if you play Walsh responder can have much longer Diamonds.

I clearly see no reason to play it as a heart game try even if you do not play Walsh, just bid game in hearts if you got a fit.

[han]

I don't play support doubles this high and I prefer 3D is forcing.

[awm]

Not forcing. A forcing hand with 4♥ and longer diamonds bids 1♦ not 1♥. A forcing hand with five hearts has no need to introduce an alternative suit (can bid 4♥ or 3♠ depending on slam interest) , and a forcing hand with four hearts and four diamonds should bid 3NT or 3♠ next (stopper ask).

[mikeh]

The answer depends, to some degree, on your agreements.

Bear in mind that, in any 'standard' type of method, you will sometimes hold 5+ hearts and invitational values, and a hand on which a 3♦ game try would be ideal. But it cannot be both a gametry with 5+ hearts and a rescue with 4 hearts and longer diamonds.

Playing a walsh style, as Adam contemplates, you cannot logically hold an opening hand with long diamonds and 4 hearts... you would have responded 1♦, intending to show hearts later.

But that doesn't obviate the possibility that you hold an INVITATIONAL hand. Matters get even more complex when we consider that logic suggests that a support double of 2♠, which essentially commits the partnership to the 3-level, should show extras... minimum range openings should be saying pass. If the double promises, say, a good 14 or more, then responder may well have a game try with values clearly below the walsh requirement for 1♦ then hearts, even if that requirement, in your version of walsh, is not gf... btw, in most of my partnerships, 1♦ then hearts is gf, but in my weak notrump methods, it is merely invitational plus, so there is no uniformity in this issue in 'walsh' players.

My preferred view, and I am interested in the views of others, is that, within a walsh or near-walsh structure, the 3♦ is best played as nf, bailing from a 4-3 heart fit into what responder hopes is a 5-2 or 5-3 or even 6-2 fit.

I say this because I think that a gametry hand can often just bid game, and survive... indeed, sometimes prosper by not disclosing the nature of the hand via the gametry, while the rescue hand is sometimes going to be doomed if forced to bid 3♥ on, say, Jxx Jxxx KQ10xx x imagine this opposite xx Axx Axx AQxxx

Playing strict up the line responses, however, logic means that you cannot have the rescue hand.. with Jxx Jxxx KQ10xx x, the correct response is 1♦! Now, since we don't need the rescue bid (we cannot hold any hand that fits the shape), we can and should use the bid as a gametry in hearts.

[jillybean]

Funny, my pard said after the hand double was 'of course' a support double and
all those people who told me I must add support doubles to my card never mentioned it is only played through 2♥

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♣    Pass  1♥
 2♠    Dbl   Pass  4♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


4♥ was of course an awful bid while 3nt was cold - 4♥ ony making thanks to the opps bumble.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

What is the purpose of a support X?

The purpose is to differentiate the length of support,
if opener raises responders suit to the 2 level after
intervention.
To help responders to decide, if he should compete
to the 3 level, if they bid over our 2 level contract.

If the points are split evenly, you usually dont mind playing
a 4-3 fit on the 2 level, but regular playing 4-3 fits on the 3
level cant be sound, sometimes they may even be able
to double you, ... afterall in this scenario the outstanding
trumps will quite often split 4-2.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on May 9 2008, 12:22 AM, said:

4♥ was of course an awful bid while 3nt was cold - 4♥ ony making thanks to the opps bumble.

Normally, 4♥ makes 5 while 3NT makes 4, assuming a diamond lead.

I don't think there's anything about this hand indicated a club void, which is the only reason that a heart contract isn't better than 3NT.

[jillybean]

jtfanclub, on May 9 2008, 07:12 AM, said:

jillybean2, on May 9 2008, 12:22 AM, said:

4♥ was of course an awful bid while 3nt was cold - 4♥ ony making thanks to the opps bumble.

Normally, 4♥ makes 5 while 3NT makes 4, assuming a diamond lead.

I don't think there's anything about this hand indicated a club void, which is the only reason that a heart contract isn't better than 3NT.

Youre right, Im still not sure 4♥ was the best bid.

[ArtK78]

If the double was a support double (and, to me, it would not be), then 4♥ is a 100% bid. I cannot think of an alternate call, unless one wants to make a slam try.

3NT is not under serious consideration.

[peachy]

jillybean2, on May 8 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

 -     1♣    Pass  1♥
 2♠    Dbl*   Pass  3♦
*support 

game try or game forcing?

I tend to take 'rules' to the extreme and perhaps what I should be noting is a new suit at 3lvl is gf after a 2/1

I don't know of anyone else who plays that Dbl in this auction is support double. Too high. Responder might have a 6-count with four baby hearts and five diamonds. If responder were strong enough to force, he would have responded up-the-line 1D instead of 1H. He could of course have 5-card heart suit but in that case he could just bid 3H or 4H if Dbl indeed was support.

[jillybean]

peachy, on May 10 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

jillybean2, on May 8 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

 -     1♣    Pass  1♥
 2♠    Dbl*   Pass  3♦
*support 

game try or game forcing?

I tend to take 'rules' to the extreme and perhaps what I should be noting is  a new suit at 3lvl is gf after a 2/1 

I don't know of anyone else who plays that Dbl in this auction is support double. Too high. Responder might have a 6-count with four baby hearts and five diamonds. If responder were strong enough to force, he would have responded up-the-line 1D instead of 1H. He could of course have 5-card heart suit but in that case he could just bid 3H or 4H if Dbl indeed was support.

If you read further on down in the thread you will see the hand was 3532 and I did indeed bash 4♥. At the time I wasnt sure if the double said anything about ♥'s so my question was could I have forced the auction with 3♦, a kind of nmf.

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on May 11 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

At the time I wasnt sure if the double said anything about ♥'s so my question was could I have forced the auction with 3♦, a kind of nmf.

Unfortunately, if the double is the usual generic your only forcing bid is a cue.

If it's a support double, I'd certainly argue that 3♦ here is a one round force, and doesn't even show diamonds (yet). But you could still stop in 3♥.