[helene_t]

(1m)-pass-(pass)-2M

is intermediate. Why is that? Must it be so, or is it just an arbitrary convention?

[the hog]

No but what else makes more sense? It seems logical to play this as a 13-16 good 6 carder

[helene_t]

I thought, with 8-11 points you would be worried that opps might "win" the auction if you made a simple overcall. If you make a jump overcall the risk is smaller. With 13-16 you have a higher expectation of winning the auction. Basically I would say that the same arguments for and against weak jump overcalls would apply as in direct seat (except of course that many hands that qualify for a wjo in direct seat should pass in balancing seat).

[the hog]

helene_t, on May 1 2008, 05:42 PM, said:

I thought, with 8-11 points you would be worried that opps might "win" the auction if you made a simple overcall. If you make a jump overcall the risk is smaller. With 13-16 you have a higher expectation of winning the auction. Basically I would say that the same arguments for and against weak jump overcalls would apply as in direct seat (except of course that many hands that qualify for a wjo in direct seat should pass in balancing seat).

I not worried about the opps winning the auction when 3rd hand passes. I'm more interested in pd raising me to game in the knowledge that I have a nice hand and a 6 card suit. :-)

[helene_t]

Oh, so a simple overcall denies the values of an IJO ? That makes sense. I thought the ranges overlapped, say 8-15 and 12-15 or such.

[babalu1997]

Many standard methods reccomend this:

a) 1m-p-p- dbl is 10+ hcp and any shape, perhaps partner trap passed

1m-p-p-1nt is the "borrow a king" overcall

c) 1m-p-p-2M is 12-15 hcp and 6 card major

d) 1m-p-p-cheapest suit overcall is 5-9 hcp

e) 1m-p-p-2NT is 20-21 hcp, opps stopped

Problems that commonly happen:

With a)

people dbl with mild values , increasing the chance of poor penalty doubles

With c)

people assume it is weak and miss game

With d)

They make a cheapest overcall with an opening hand, and partner fails to bid game (owing to the lack of a double)

[helene_t]

babalu1997, on May 1 2008, 02:06 PM, said:

a) 1m-p-p- dbl is 10+ hcp and any shape, perhaps partner trap passed

d) 1m-p-p-cheapest suit overcall is 5-9 hcp

No, dbl is not "any shape", it might be slightly less disciplined than in direct seat but only slightly, and its primary purpose is not to find p with a trap pass but to find a fit for ourselves. And it does not promise 10 hcp. 7 will do with ideal shape.

Never heard of the 5-9. Sounds horrible.

[babalu1997]

helene_t, on May 1 2008, 08:12 AM, said:

No, dbl is not "any shape", it might be slightly less disciplined than in direct seat but only slightly, and its primary purpose is not to find p with a trap pass but to find a fit for ourselves. And it does not promise 10 hcp. 7 will do with ideal shape.

Never heard of the 5-9. Sounds horrible.

I have been using these guidelines from Ron Klinger for a while with good sucess, and here is a quote from him.

1suit- p- p

"It is worth competing with any hand worth and overcall in the direct seat. In addition, do not bother with the suit quality test in 4th seat. If you do not act now, the opponents will win the auction and so you cannot afford to have stringent requirements"

quoted from: when to bid, when to pass , page 92.

So I would over call there holding KQxxx in spades, that is 5 hacp and an overcall I would make in direct seat.


I have seen similar guidelines in other standard bidding books as well, and have used them sucessfully.

[helene_t]

But you talked about an overcall in the cheapest suit. The quote does not mention anything special about the cheapest suit.

I don't see the upper limit of 9 points in that quote. I can't believe Klinger would recommend that. A balancing-seat overcall with 14 points is normal.

As for the advice to overcall on any hand with which you would overcall in direct seat: That advice must be based on some specific assumptions about your direct-seat overcall style, since the more aggressive your partner is in direct seat, the more conservative you must be in balancing seat.

Also, length in opps' suit is a reason not to overcall in balancing seat, while it is less so (some would even say the opposite) in direct seat.

[han]

I think limiting simple overcalls to 5-9 is very poor, you will need to double with far too many hands. Modern standard is to overcall with quite a large range.

As Ron said, the intermediate jump overcall makes it asier to find games.

[neilkaz]

The_Hog, on May 1 2008, 05:36 AM, said:

No but what else makes more sense? It seems logical to play this as a 13-16 good 6 carder

Yes bcuz why would you jump balance with a really weak preemptive jump overcall rather than pass out the hand ?

So by taking the weak preemptive jump overcalls that we'd make in direct overcall seat out of the possible 2M jumps now, we can then use a 2M jump for a better hand than a routine 1M balance.

.. neilkaz ..

[helene_t]

neilkaz, on May 1 2008, 04:56 PM, said:

Yes bcuz why would you jump balance with a really weak preemptive jump overcall rather than pass out the hand ?

That wasn't my question. Of course you will pass many hands that would qualify for a WJO in direct seat.

But suppose with a 6-card you would pass with (say) 0-6 points and dbl with (say) 15+, then my question is why the jump overcall must be allocated to to the upper part of the range in between rather than to the lower part.

[jdonn]

Never heard of this double = any 10+ before, seems almost unplayable. As for Helene, honestly I see your point. One thing to take comfort in is the better hand is far more common IMO after the weakneses shown around the table.

Frankly, overcalls and doubles have gotten so light these days, that with the exception of the notrump ladder (made easier by having a natural 2NT overcall when balancing) I'm not sure I would change much of anything in balancing seat.

[han]

Say you make the jump overcall with 8-11 points as you suggest. You will be bidding 1M with 6-7 points and a good suit, and those would rebid 2M if partner acts. So if partner acts and you overcalled with 12 then you would have to jump to 3M, which might well be too high.

I think I play the balancing jump a little weaker than Ron, about 12-14 points with a good 6-card suit. With more you can either make a simple overcall and jump next, or double first.

[helene_t]

han, on May 1 2008, 05:20 PM, said:

Say you make the jump overcall with 8-11 points as you suggest. You will be bidding 1M with 6-7 points and a good suit, and those would rebid 2M if partner acts.

If the minimum for a simple overcall with a good 6-card is 6 HCPs, then obviously a range like 8-11 would be awkward. Just wondering what would be wrong with 6-9 in that case.

Say it goes (1♣)-p-(p)-? and I have
Kxxx-KQxxxx-x-xx

Playing IJO I bid 1♥ and if p responds 2♦ I would have an easy rebid of 2♥.

Playing WJO I would either have to lose the spade suit with a 2♥ overcall or I would have to pass partner's 2♦ response. With AJxx-KQxxx-x-xxx I might like to balance with 1♥ but wouldn't have any options other than pass if p responds 2♦.

I'm trying to reconstruct the case for playing IJO. Something like the above? Not sure how likely p is to respond 2♦ when he couldn't overcall 1♦ himself. If we swap the minors, a 2♦ cuebid would be available if p responds 2♣.

Ron's argument for 13-16 sounds more like jump overcalls being made when I am afraid that p will pass a simple overcall. That I would call SJO rather than IJO but maybe my semantics is wicked.

[babalu1997]

helene_t, on May 1 2008, 09:03 AM, said:

But you talked about an overcall in the cheapest suit. The quote does not mention anything special about the cheapest suit.

I don't see the upper limit of 9 points in that quote. I can't believe Klinger would recommend that. A balancing-seat overcall with 14 points is normal.

As for the advice to overcall on any hand with which you would overcall in direct seat: That advice must be based on some specific assumptions about your direct-seat overcall style, since the more aggressive your partner is in direct seat, the more conservative you must be in balancing seat.

Also, length in opps' suit is a reason not to overcall in balancing seat, while it is less so (some would even say the opposite) in direct seat.

Sorry I meant a simple overcall at the cheapest level.

And, yes, when partner overcalls in direct seat we do have overcall standards, ie, in direct seat we will not overcall spades, lets say holding qxxxx, as we use that for some lead direction as well.

Now, this is how I arrived at the 9 point limit, by quoting from the same page:

** The reopening double is played about 3 points weaker than in the direct seat and partner takes that into account when replying**

Now the minimum range takeout double in direct seat is 12-15 or 11+ with classical shape. (That appears on page 86 of the same book, when to bid, when to pass)
Ergo, a takeout dbl in passout suit is then placed at 10+.

Given that we play disciplined takeout doubles, overcalls, and the cuebids are reserved for conventions in direct seat, sometimes we find ourselves not being able to take action and partner must act to protect in 4th seat.

I am not saying that what i play is the truth and nothing but the truth, just citing the source where I adopted the ranges from. And, since I cited the pages, and if you wish to see it to believe it, you might want to check the book at a library.

[helene_t]

Thanks Justin. I was assuming that WJO implies that 1♥ followed by 2♥ would show an intermediate hand unless p cuebids. (A weak hand would usually have a comfortable pass on anything else p might bid since a weak hand with shortness in an unbid suit would not balance).

In direct seat, this is less of an issue with the sound overcall style I play in most partnerships, but with the callous overcall style popular on BBF I see you have the same argument for IJO in direct seat.

[y66]

re: frequency

When the auction goes 1m p p to us and we have a 6 card major and everyone is playing SAYC or 2/1, the HCPs are distributed thusly around the table according to Jack's dealer program*:

Seat ... mean HCPs (st. dev)

1st ... 14.8 (2.6)
2nd .... 9.4 (3.3)
3rd .... 3.4 (1.3)
4th ... 12.4 (3.6)

The 8-11 range occurs on 32% of the deals. Han's range (12-14) also occurs on 32% of the deals. Ron's range (13-16) occurs on 35%.

* 10,000 deals (2,500 for each combination of m and M)