[han]

Teams, red against white.

K10xxx
J10xx
Jxx
A

(p) - p - (1D)- Dbl
(2D) - ??

[Winstonm]

3D, and then boost 3H/3S to game.

[kenrexford]

Winstonm, on Apr 27 2008, 06:35 PM, said:

3D, and then boost 3H/3S to game.

Same here.

[FrancesHinden]

Double (two places to play) and raise partner's 2M to 3M.
I think game forcing this is a bit much.

[rogerclee]

I think this is definitely good enough to GF, and I will go through 3♦.

[pclayton]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 28 2008, 12:27 AM, said:

Double (two places to play) and raise partner's 2M to 3M.
I think game forcing this is a bit much.

Agree with this. The singleton ♣A is red flag (I'd rather have it in hearts). A direct 3♠ is OK too.

[jdonn]

I will just bid 3♠, I don't see the point of cuebidding, and this is clearly not a game force opposite the way almost all of us double. Maybe it used to be one ten years ago.

[han]

Phew, glad to see some 3S bidders, it looked like this was yet another example where everybody bid game except me. I do like Frances's suggestion of doubling and raising better actually.

I bid 3S, partner bid game and I found the expert line to go down 2. The other table was also in game but the declarer wasn't nearly as good as I am so we lost 3 IMPs.

[pclayton]

han, on Apr 28 2008, 08:34 AM, said:

Phew, glad to see some 3S bidders, it looked like this was yet another example where everybody bid game except me. I do like Frances's suggestion of doubling and raising better actually.

I bid 3S, partner bid game and I found the expert line to go down 2. The other table was also in game but the declarer wasn't nearly as good as I am so we lost 3 IMPs.

Right, he expertly found the line to avoid losing three trump tricks with AQ6 / J in the opposing hands

[kenrexford]

What was partner's hand?

[han]

Something like 9xxx Kxx AK Kxxx, maybe better spots in clubs.

[kenrexford]

han, on Apr 28 2008, 03:29 PM, said:

Something like 9xxx Kxx AK Kxxx, maybe better spots in clubs.

This is a hand worth raising to game after an invite? Wow.

I don't get the thinking here. IMO, a fourth-seat red-on-white takeout double at IMPs should show a hand with game prospects if partner has the right hand.

Partner has the right hand, and game is hopeless.

If you can double this garbage, and presumably much worse if this is a game-acceptance contextually, then Advancer cannot act when he should and games will be missed. This is especially the case if we are expecting a reasonable chance of a 1-X-3 minor auction and if partner opens relatively light anyway.

If you keep the doubleton club and move the A-K elsewhere, you end up with ♠A9xx ♥AKx ♦xx ♣Kxxx, where 5♠ is a fair bet. Make the diamond a stiff, and 6♠ may well make. But, we are bidding only 3♠?

How about a more mundane ♠A9xx ♥A9x ♦xx ♣Kxxx? That's complete garbage, but game will make when trumps are 2-2.

On the flip, what about ♠A9xx ♥AKxx ♦x ♣Kxxx? Reduce Advancer to Kxxxx-J10xx-xxx-x. It would be nice to bid 3♠ with this hand, and reach a fair 4♠ contract at IMP's, but how can I bid 3♠ with this hand if partner will expect another Ace and if partner might have the trash he actually has?

Bottom line is that the decision as to what to do with Advancer's hand depends on the takeout style, and I don't get this style in fourth seat, red-v-white, at IMP's against a minor opening.

[han]

kenrexford, on Apr 28 2008, 04:25 PM, said:

If you keep the doubleton club and move the A-K elsewhere, you end up with ♠A9xx ♥AKx ♦xx ♣Kxxx.

I like this kind of moving.

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Apr 28 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Apr 28 2008, 04:25 PM, said:

Bottom line is that the decision as to what to do with Advancer's hand depends on the takeout style

Yes I agree with this totally, but unfortunately not the second part of your sentence. It's almost for sure going to be a partscore hand after p p 1D when you have the random 13 count, and you have an easy and relatively safe way to get your side in and compete for that partscore. I do not understand the desire to pass up this opportunity. If you are waiting for stronger hands to make a t/o X you will be waiting a long time I definitely agree that hand should pass 3S though.

While I like competing for partscores, I don't agree with your conclusion.

First, passing 1♦ does not mean that we are giving up on the partscore battle. The auction is not over.

Second, when red, the potential gains of competing are reduced anyway, as a one-trick set usually gains nothing (as opposed to a one-trick NV set, which can game 2 IMPs easily). When they are white, the one or two trick set the other way (we set them) is not as lucrative, either.

Third, missing games is really important to avoid. Not doubling here with trash allows partner to invite game with trash. As he is known to have trash, I want to encourage him to do so.

Finally, although it is true that it will be a partscore battle when the auction does proceed P-P-bid-? and I have a random 13-count, it is also true that the auction often goes P-P-bid-? when we are red-on-white and I have a bulky hand because my RHO just opened some utter nonense. Using light takeouts in this sequence, IMO, makes you more vulnerable to such an attack.

[helene_t]

My first thought was 3♠ but I like Frances' idea. P may have some club losers which we'd rather discard on long spades or ruff with equal trump length than ruffing in the long hand. And I don't foresee any problems after a dbl. Even if opps bid 4♦ I'm ok doubling it, otherwise 3♠ over opps' 3♦.