[kgr]

1♦-(2♣)-p-(p)
2♥-(P)-2NT
You agreed Lebensohl after reverse. Do you still use 2NT as Lebensohl after this sequence?

[han]

No.

[helene_t]

No, this is not an almost-GF situation since responder could have zero HCPs. 3♣ is available for hands that want to GF, other bids are natural and NF.

[kenrexford]

You could.

I think that the availability of a 3♣ cue, however, serves that function just as well.

[kgr]

Scoring: MP

1D-(2C)-P-(P)
2H-(P)-??

---

Question popped up after this bidding. I wondered if we played still 2NT lebensohl in this situation and didn't know (with or without Lebensohl) how to ask for a Spade stop.
So I decided to bid 3NT and opps did lead a ♣. LHO had 4 card ♦ and RHO had ♥Q, but all was ok because opps did play twice ♣ (initial lead and after in with ♥Q)

[han]

I think that north should double instead of bidding 2H.

[the hog]

Yes this is still Leb. A 3D/H bid shows some values. 3C shows scattered values primarily in S.
Why anyone would want to play 2NT as natural is beyond my ken. So you think you are going to make exactly 8 tricks if pd passes????

[han]

The_Hog, on Apr 29 2008, 08:00 PM, said:

Yes this is still Leb. A 3D/H bid shows some values. 3C shows scattered values primarily in S.
Why anyone would want to play 2NT as natural is beyond my ken. So you think you are going to make exactly 8 tricks if pd passes????

If you open 1H, do you expect to take exactly 7 tricks if partner passes? Is that the only possible reason for a non-forcing natural bid?

[the hog]

han, on Apr 30 2008, 08:05 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 29 2008, 08:00 PM, said:

Yes this is still Leb. A 3D/H bid shows some values. 3C shows scattered values primarily in S.
Why anyone would want to play 2NT as natural is beyond my ken. So you think you are going to make exactly 8 tricks if pd passes????

If you open 1H, do you expect to take exactly 7 tricks if partner passes? Is that the only possible reason for a non-forcing natural bid?

Bad example Han, think about it! How often is 1H terminal. How much more often is pd likely to pass 2NT. Also pd has at least 9 cards in the reds here. Your nat 2NT shows black values. How likely are you to make 8 tricks? Isn't it better to try and strive to support pd's Ds if you can?

This is a similar reason to why most strong Precision players no longer play 2C - 2NT as nnf.

[jdonn]

If notrump is your best strain (why shouldn't it be?), and you make 8 OR FEWER tricks, then won't you want 2NT to be natural? It's not like stopping in 2NT is only right when you exactly make 2NT.

[han]

Also, a natural 2NT may make it easier to find the best game, may it be 3NT or something else.

A natural 2NT also means that partner can trust your 3NT more, which may help with slam bidding.

Now, I'm not denying that there may be other good uses for 2NT, I only think that your argument against a natural 2NT is too simplistic.

[the hog]

jdonn, on Apr 30 2008, 08:24 AM, said:

If notrump is your best strain (why shouldn't it be?), and you make 8 OR FEWER tricks, then won't you want 2NT to be natural? It's not like stopping in 2NT is only right when you exactly make 2NT.

Josh if I make 8 tricks in 2NT, then ok, however if I am in 2NT and make fewer and coould have made 3D, then I am not happy.

Han, playing my way you can also show 1/2 C stopper on the way to 3Nt and various other features by using 2NT as the Leb puppet to 3C.

Anyway, I have played it this way for a long time and have had good results, so I am not even thinking of changing. Your mileage may be different.

[kenrexford]

I say, "Make all 2NT bids artificial!!!"