[Turbin]

I’m in team match, first hand, both not vulnerable. My partner is a good player, not my usual partner (true to tell, I haven’t usual partners). Have played already with him, few times; the system is basic Sayc.
I have picked up these cards, in south:

Scoring: IMP

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My partner, the dealer, opens 1S, and that’s the overall auction: 1S-2D; 2NT-4C; (double from my LHO opponent), 4D-4NT; 5D-7S. All pass.

About my auction: I assume that:
- Partner's 2NT shows an half-balanced hand (5-3-3-2, any doubleton), by from good 13 (with heads and concentrated honours), to 15 points.
- Partner’s 4D is the D king, and hasn’t the C ace (redouble, not 4D).
- My 4NT is an ugly auction: after the cue bid starting, 4NT hasn’t Blackwood meaning; however, without agreement, I hope it’s. Then, partner’s 5D is an ace, the hearts’ one.

RHO opponent leads by clubs, and these were the 26 cards:

Scoring: IMP

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Because the C lead and the ruff, my partner must play the spades by heads, and takes the spades Qx over the finesse. An embarrassing good result (6S +1 in the other table). The day after, I have talked with the partner about his 2NT. He has explained:
“Playing 2/1 GF, as I do with my partner, 2S would show six spades cards”. After my objections, he has agreed with my opinions. Later, I have asked to a 2/1 GF expert, and he has replied:
“2NT, both in Sayc or 2/1 GF…2S only with six cards…Repeating the spades with five cards, you tell two times the same story”.

Here my opinions. In Sayc, 1Major…2Major doesn’t means “six or more cards”. It means: “minimum, for the moment”. 2NT, on the contrary, shows a good half-balanced hand. And that's a logic bidding, not a convention. Because:
- The replier could have 10-11 points (that’s the most frequent case of 2/1 reply). If the opener has 14 points (good 13 to 15), after 2NT the replier, with a tolerance for the opener’s suit (e.g. Jx), must bid 3NT. If the opener has 11-12 points, the replier must pass. How to differentiate the two cases?
- If the replier has three cards help, he doesn’t need of six in opener’s hand. If the replier has two cards help, also with a 6-2 fit the 3NT contract is often better.

A tail: I allow also 15 points for 2NT, not only 12-14; that’s another story.
Paolo.

[Trpltrbl]

2 NT should show decent hand, something like 13/14 count. I will rebid 2♠ with minimum hand, even if I only have 5.
4♣ looks very much like Gerber to me, since you haven't set trump suit yet.
Playing 2/1 you can just bid 3♠ after 2 NT, and go from there. In SAYC it's harder, and if 4 NT was Ace asking and pd showed 1 you can't bid 7 ♠ gambling that pd has and the right Ace and all the other good cards he need for the Grandslam to make. You might as well have bid 7 ♠ directly, that has about the same amount of science to it

Mike

[Trpltrbl]

I forgot to put the SAYC auction in there.
1♠ - 2♥
2♠/ NT - 3♦
3♥ - 3♠
4♠ - 4NT/ 5♣

and either way, you will end up in 6 of a major, making an overtrick. That's where you should be.

Mike

[JRG]

For what it is worth, I play that 1M - 2x; 2M is 6-cards with my one regular partner (about 20 years) and with another (about 1-1/2 years) we play that 2NT rebid shows an honour ("stopper") in each of the unbid suits (so 2M maybe just a 5-card suit).

I've yet to notice anything significant in the two approaches (though there must be!). The one hand that I find is handled more easily by being able to rebid a 5-card major is 4=5-x-y where I'm 2-2 or 3-1 in the minors (3 in the minor partner didn't bid).

If anybody asks, we (long-time partnership) used to play Flannery. We came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time. It occasionally worked well but much too often preempted our own auction and prevented us finding our "best" contract (we were too high to stop in a minor suit fit or we were too high period to begin with).

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi Paolo!

Spoiler

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If you play 2NT rebid of 2/1 responder as forcing, rebid 2 of major of opener must be min hand with any distribution, include fit in 2/1 suit, because any hand can be described later on 2NT. If you play 2NT rebid of 2/1 as inv and NF, then rebid 2 of major of opener can show 6 cards, because major orientation of game bidding, but it is the matter of country traditions and players opinion.

Spoiler

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Misho

[bglover]

This has actually been discussed in a different thread extensively. Ill find the link and post it here.

But, as a short review, most of the major 2 over 1 systems as originally developed do not require a sixth card for a major rebid UNLESS responder's initial bid was 1 no trump. Thus, 2nt rebids by opener now guarantee stoppers for all unbid suits.

Sure, some (many even) play that you need a sixth major card in all cases and therefore rebid 2nt on any 5332 (or whatever) because of that requiremet. Since you are in a 2 over 1 auction already many times the stoppers are there perforce. But, I personally think it's riskier than rebidding a 5 card suit with a minimum hand and keeping partner in the auction.

If you play this way, then a third rebid of suit by opener now guarantees 6 pieces.

(FWIW when I play SA i guarantee a sixth piece. This is because partner is not forced to take another bid if I rebid 2 major the way I play, so it needs to assure something else).

PS.. I went looking of that old thread and couldn't find it... looked in both entire SAYC/2 over 1 discussion and in Advanced/expert.... think it may have gotten lost in transition to new software.

[mr1303]

My impression of the 2M rebid after a 2/1 was that it generally shouldn't show a balanced 12-14 count. However, given that a rebid at the level shows a much better hand (in sayc certainly) and shows a violent distribution in 2/1, the 2M rebid describes a hand that is neither of these.

Such as:

S KQxxx
H Kxx
D A
C Qxxx

If you open 1S, and get a 2D response, you can only rebid 2S, as 3C shows a different hand

[luis]

I find the 7s bid without asking for the trump queen insulting.
About 2NT in 2/1 depends on your agreements because there're many styles, for example I play that it shows doubleton in the 2/1 suit and stoppers in the remaining suits any strength. Others play that is either 12-14 or 18-19. And others play that it shows 5332 distribution of any strenght.
In SAYC 2NT shows some extras as many posters pointed here, I found that treatment horrible but in sync with the whole system.

[WGF_Flame]

why didnt u bid 5h to ask for the Q of spade ?

[mishovnbg]

bglover, on Mar 21 2004, 03:21 PM, said:

This has actually been discussed in a different thread extensively. Ill find the link and post it here.

But, as a short review, most of the major 2 over 1 systems as originally developed do not require a sixth card for a major rebid UNLESS responder's initial bid was 1 no trump. Thus, 2nt rebids by opener now guarantee stoppers for all unbid suits.

Sure, some (many even) play that you need a sixth major card in all cases and therefore rebid 2nt on any 5332 (or whatever) because of that requiremet. Since you are in a 2 over 1 auction already many times the stoppers are there perforce. But, I personally think it's riskier than rebidding a 5 card suit with a minimum hand and keeping partner in the auction.

If you play this way, then a third rebid of suit by opener now guarantees 6 pieces.

(FWIW when I play SA i guarantee a sixth piece. This is because partner is not forced to take another bid if I rebid 2 major the way I play, so it needs to assure something else).

PS.. I went looking of that old thread and couldn't find it... looked in both entire SAYC/2 over 1 discussion and in Advanced/expert.... think it may have gotten lost in transition to new software.

Spoiler

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Hi Steve!

Before to search between posts, scroll thread page at bottom and there you will find combo boxes: "last post date", descending order" and "the last 30 days". Pick up from last "from the beginning" and you will find all previous posts hidden by this option - if you know how many time I lost to understand that .

Spoiler

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Misho