[Vilgan]

Soo..

with a 2♠ opener on your right, you hold:

♠A
♥AKQTxx
♦AKxx
♣Ax

So taking the obvious double, it goes pass and now you hear 3♦ by partner (not playing lebensohl)

It seems like the ONLY thing partner needs to have for 7♦ to be cold is the trump queen. However, the usual space (aka that below game) is going to be used up by their 0 keycards response.

So if the auction continues:

2♠ X p 3♦
p 4NT p 5♦
p 5♥

Is this clearly asking them to bid grand w/ the trump queen and out? Or is it just omg I have a big hand, please bid grand with some extra?

Partner had something like:
xxxx xxx QJxx xx

Also, playing lebensohl over 2M x, is there a way to find the diamond fit for the grand?

Maybe a bit immature, but I really love getting to 7 of a minor on a 4/4 when I know the field will be in the more obvious 6M slam.

disclaimer: the actual hand at the table had a 2♥ preempt and my major suits were reversed. But playing kickback, whether or not it is a trump queen ask now becomes simple. If spades is the preempt suit 4♥ is too ambiguous thus forcing 4NT to be the keycard ask.

[han]

With lebensohl:

(2S) - Dbl - 2NT
3S - 4D
4NT - 5D
5H - 5NT
7D

In either case 5H asks for the queen, and 5NT shows the queen but no side kings.

I agree that it is very nice to find a superior minor suit fit when a major suit fit is also available.

[ArtK78]

If you are playing RKCB as most people play it, the relay bid after a 0/3 or 1/4 response asks for the trump queen.

[han]

You play kickback but not lebensohl? I think you need to get your priorities straight.

[kenrexford]

We are discussing Lebensohl and Queen-asks in B/I? I thought this was weird hyper-complex stuff.

BTW -- I like han's auction.

[Vilgan]

han, on Apr 25 2008, 11:45 AM, said:

You play kickback but not lebensohl? I think you need to get your priorities straight.

Well my usual partner of late is the girlfriend, and she has an easy time w/ kickback but kept forgetting lebensohl so we took that off the card for a bit until she feels ready to add it back in. I dislike playing w/o lebensohl over 2M but I tend to roll with whatever she is happy and comfortable with

Han: thank you, good example. One thing though, I thought 5NT there usually shows Q and the unbiddable K (in this case, the K of hearts).

Ken: I dunno, I thought "is this a queen ask for sure" fell under intermediate I had some solid foundations in bidding as a beginner so some things I know.. and some things I feel like I *should* know but am not sure on. This fell into the latter category.

[han]

That would be the case if 5 of the suit was available as a sign off without the queen. Here you bid 6D without the queen so you need 5NT to show the queen.

[helene_t]

If 5♥ is queen ask, how can you make a slam try in hearts? 5♥ over 3♦ ? (I suggested in another thread to use an immediate 4♣ to show hearts but no-one seemed to like that idea).

[ArtK78]

If you double 2♠ and partner bids 3♦ Lebensohl, showing values, then 3♥ by you should be forcing.

Given that Lebensohl is not in the partnership arsenal, this is a real problem. If you want to emphasize hearts and hearts alone, you have to either just jump to 4♥ or cuebid spades and then bid hearts.

Once you bid RKCB over 3♦, playing in hearts is no longer in the picture.

[han]

ArtK78, on Apr 25 2008, 12:25 PM, said:

If you double 2♠ and partner bids 3♦ Lebensohl, showing values, then 3♥ by you should be forcing.

Given that Lebensohl is not in the partnership arsenal, this is a real problem. If you want to emphasize hearts and hearts alone, you have to either just jump to 4♥ or cuebid spades and then bid hearts.

Agree.

Quote

Once you bid RKCB over 3♦, playing in hearts is no longer in the picture.

6H is to play.

[neilkaz]

han, on Apr 25 2008, 10:45 AM, said:

You play kickback but not lebensohl? I think you need to get your priorities straight.

No kidding as I find leb can really reduce the effectiveness of opp weak 2's and I don't think I've wanted to invite with 2NT one hand in 20.

[the hog]

As 3343 nothing gives you a reasonable play for 6, why not just bid 5NT over 3D? This asks for hons in the D suit - 6C = none, 6D = 1, etc etc. Surely this is much easier than futzing about.

[Vilgan]

The_Hog, on Apr 26 2008, 03:44 AM, said:

As 3343 nothing gives you a reasonable play for 6, why not just bid 5NT over 3D? This asks for hons in the D suit - 6C = none, 6D = 1, etc etc. Surely this is much easier than futzing about.

I'm not sure that 5NT would clearly ask for honors (for us anyways). Is this even a standard understanding? Also, it only works if the Q is an honor but the J is not. I think we play 5 NT as almost always pick a slam.. so bid 6NT or 6♦.

And to the other posters: I KNOW lebensohl over weak 2's is useful. I've played it and I love it. But I am not going to tell someone "I don't care about your feelings on the subject, we are playing it now", especially when that someone is your significant other

[the hog]

Vilgan, on Apr 26 2008, 09:54 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 26 2008, 03:44 AM, said:

As 3343 nothing gives you a reasonable play for 6, why not just bid 5NT over 3D? This asks for hons in the D suit - 6C = none, 6D = 1, etc etc. Surely this is much easier than futzing about.

I'm not sure that 5NT would clearly ask for honors (for us anyways). Is this even a standard understanding? Also, it only works if the Q is an honor but the J is not.

Its a standard understanding where I play, that it agrees the last named suit and asks for A-K-Q of trumps with step responses.

[y66]

Vilgan, on Apr 25 2008, 11:57 AM, said:

I thought 5NT there usually shows Q and the unbiddable K (in this case, the K of hearts).

I did too. Like Han's distinction.

Also like finding those 4-4 minor suit slams!