[andy_h]

1S all the way

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Apr 27 2008, 04:40 AM, said:

Not just in sayc, but in any system you should open 1S. Only open 1C if you are happy to bid over the opp's 4H if that is what comes back to you.

So if I open 1 spade and it comes back to me at 4♥, I'm sure I'll know when it's right to bid 5♣. Or not. In fact, I'd say that it coming back to me at 4♥ would be a darned good reason to have opened it 1♣.

I would think a lot of it would depend on your continuations. For example, in a non-competitive auction, does

1♠ 2♣
1♠ 1NT 2♣

and similar auctions show a club suit? Or does it show nothing extra to show? If you can't find your club fit after opening a spade, but you can find your spade fit after opening a club, seems pretty obvious what to open.

[whereagles]

There are good arguments for opening it either 1♣ or 1♠, so anything you pick will probably work out ok.

[mikeh]

This is an old, old argument, that was won decisively, in terms of popular votes, 30+ years ago. There are still some very good players who like 1♣ with 5=5 blacks, but they are a tiny minority. I actually play this with one partner, an ACBL Grand Life Master.

There are pros and cons for either approach, so even tho the 1♠ camp is far larger than the 1♣, I don't think this is a situation where one approach is clearly far superior.

For me, the main advantage of 1♠ is that it eliminates many overcalls, where the opps can afford to bid at the 1-level but not the 2-level.

But there is little doubt that our own constructive auctions will sometimes be smoother after 1♣.

Playing both, I prefer 1♠, but it's not something I feel strongly about.

[catatonic]

well , it's more than 20 years since I earned my corn as a professional bridge player , pay to play and rubber , so I am certainly no longer so expert ...not that I ever considered myself out of the top drawer ; more perspiration than inspiration perhaps

nevertheless , what most people do is not , and never has been , an argument which influenced me , although you need to know that for a pick up partner ; as I said earlier it is all about bid frequency ...which way wins the most is my attitude

with regard to the 1 club- 1NT point , it seemed to me to be axiomatic so I didn't elucidate , so thanks to codo for doing so better than I could have ; I must admit to being somewhat amused by the parallel to top Polish players bidding 1club -1NT and bypassing 1 diamond , seeing as both bids are artificial and 1club doesn't show clubs any more than 1 Diamond show diamonds in polish club !

with regard to the 2 heart forcing or not bit , I am sure there are arguments on both sides , it has to be taken in the context of your overall system ; but when a player of international calibre expresses surprise in his commentary that anyone should play this as forcing , I am inclined to take his word for it [ admittedly NF is my preference so am biased ] ; it always seemed to me inconsistent to argue for aggressive bidding , then shutting out bidding on a weak single suiter

but to return to the original question , posed because I am trying to learn and understand the logic of sayc ; I will refer you to one of the finest card players and tacticians who ever lived , terence reece ; as a young player I kept coming up against him in the major events , and , for some reason he generally got the best of us ! [ can't think why javascript:add_smilie("")
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after one event he took me to one side and said .....you would be a better player if you didn't talk so much with your bidding ..like most youngsters , too busy of course ; and what bid gives the opponents more opportunity to disclose their hands than 1 club?
jtfan , can't quite follow your argument but 100% with your conclusion , so that's good enough for me !

amazed that anyone should feel insulted by my comments ....not my nature nor my intention I assure you

[mikeh]

catatonic, on Apr 28 2008, 10:24 AM, said:

with regard to the 2 heart forcing or not bit , I am sure there are arguments on both sides , it has to be taken in the context of your overall system ; but when a player of international calibre expresses surprise in his commentary that anyone should play this as forcing , I am inclined to take his word for it [ admittedly NF is my preference  so am biased ] ; it always seemed to me inconsistent to argue for aggressive bidding , then shutting out bidding on a weak single suiter

As a player 'of international calibre' (albeit marginally so, on a good day) and as a frequent, until recently, commentator at BBO vugraphs, I can tell you that I would have been very surprised if I were one of the commentators and heard another express this view. Based on my experiences, and on reading the BW for the past 20+ years (and having the previous 30+ years of BWs as well), it is my view that there are very few top flight pairs now playing NFB. NFB were a fad that never quite attracted the majority of good pairs, and now attract only a relative few, from what I can see.

OTOH, while Roland does an excellent job of selecting commentators, the level of bridge knowledge is variable, and there have been more than a few sessions where several of the commentators will pm each other about a particularly inane fellow commentator.... it is considered inappropriate to call a spade a spade 'on air'. So some egregious statements can be made with little challenge, especially when there are only 2 or 3 commentators that session, as can happen.

So I would be extremely leery of taking one comment by one commentator at one event, and forming the conclusion that this view represents expert consensus.

[catatonic]

your point re the commentators is well made micah , in fact you are being somewhat kind imho

but this happened to be someone from my past who I have played against and respect ...but as you suggest , no names , no pack drill !

maybe roland can get someone from your neck of the woods ....played against Koke at deauville one year ...he'd be a lot of fun as well as an acute observer

[FrancesHinden]

mikeh, on Apr 28 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

it is my view that there are very few top flight pairs now playing NFB. NFB were a fad that never quite attracted the majority of good pairs, and now attract only a relative few, from what I can see.

According to an ACBL casebook I was reading (which may or may not be considered a good authority), the Poles tend to play NFB after a 1C opening.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 28 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 28 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

it is my view that there are very few top flight pairs now playing NFB. NFB were a fad that never quite attracted the majority of good pairs, and now attract only a relative few, from what I can see.

According to an ACBL casebook I was reading (which may or may not be considered a good authority), the Poles tend to play NFB after a 1C opening.

Yes, I was intending my comment to apply to players using a standard or semi-standard method: polish club carries its own complexities, as do forms of precision, etc. I don't think it is appropriate to extrapolate from artificial systems and apply those treatments to 'standard' usage... and I certainly did not mean to suggest that NO good pairs play NFB in a standard context, only that I didn't think the practice had ever become more common than not, and seems to be less common now than it was 20 years ago.

[the hog]

" I must admit to being somewhat amused by the parallel to top Polish players bidding 1club -1NT and bypassing 1 diamond , seeing as both bids are artificial and 1club doesn't show clubs any more than 1 Diamond show diamonds in polish club !"

Eh? I think you don't know much about PC based on this comment.

Also you might have read that I said many 2/1 players hide Ds to bid 1NT over 1C, even with 5332 shapes.

[kenrexford]

neilkaz, on Apr 27 2008, 10:16 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 27 2008, 03:40 AM, said:

Not just in sayc, but in any system you should open 1S. Only open 1C if you are happy to bid over the opp's 4H if that is what comes back to you.

Agreed unless playing some sys where 2♠ shows 55 or 54 and this strength.

AH! One of my favorite openings -- the Roman 2♠.

[kenrexford]

The_Hog, on Apr 27 2008, 09:46 PM, said:

inquiry, on Apr 27 2008, 09:51 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 27 2008, 04:40 AM, said:

Not just in sayc, but in any system you should open 1S. Only open 1C if you are happy to bid over the opp's 4H if that is what comes back to you.

Well "any system" is a quite a statement. Thanks to fellow yellow (and a gold star) ritong, I play a system where we would open this hand 2♠. Of course this is not SAYC or "normal" 2/1, but it is a system. (2M shows that major 5+, plus 4+ clubs and a "minimum" normal opening bid).

Well thats a convention you play, Ben, not a system. Iow its an adjunct to the system you play.

I like to play the "Roman 2♠ System." Everything else in the Roman System is designed around that one bid.



And, what the Heck does Iowa have to do with adjuncts?