[inquiry]

This was one of those hands I rather forget. Our agreement after 1♦-X is....

• Redouble = 11+ hcp, and willingness to double them in some contacts. Tends to deny support for partner
  
• 1NT = transfer to 2♣, tends to deny support for ♦ but can be lead directional
  
• 2D = weak ♦ raise, and semi-preemptive, think 0 to 7 pts
  
• 2C = constructive ♦ raise or better. Tends not to be balanced
  
• 2NT = very weak ♦ raise
  
• 3D = preemptive ♦ raise, but stronger than 2NT
  
• 3C = fit jump, ♣ cards, generally 5 but 4 will do, and ♦ fit with enough for 3 level
  
• Pass = can include balance hand, 10/11 points, and can reenter with optional double on next round.

Scoring: IMP

---

West    North   East    South
        1♦      Dbl      ?

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Mar 12 2004, 02:19 PM, said:

This was one of those hands I rather forget. Our agreement after 1♦-X is....

• Redouble = 11+ hcp, and willingness to double them in some contacts. Tends to deny support for partner
  
• 1NT = transfer to 2♣, tends to deny support for ♦ but can be lead directional
  
• 2D = weak ♦ raise, and semi-preemptive, think 0 to 7 pts
  
• 2C = constructive ♦ raise or better. Tends not to be balanced
  
• 2NT = very weak ♦ raise
  
• 3D = preemptive ♦ raise, but stronger than 2NT
  
• 3C = fit jump, ♣ cards, generally 5 but 4 will do, and ♦ fit with enough for 3 level
  
• Pass = can include balance hand, 10/11 points, and can reenter with optional double on next round.

Scoring: IMP

---

West    North   East    South
        1♦      Dbl      ?

I am not going to vote according to your agreement. I will just tell you how I think about this hand. I think a rdbl is fine, I will give pd a simple d raise next round if pd didnt dbl opp's Major bid. If pd didnt dbl them, then pd should have 4+diamond. The only concern is that opp may bid a lot spade which pd pass, forcing you to make a smart decision. This hand is very good in defense, you have two aces, and cq is very good card given RHO dbled. You dont have high card in D. All these should make you feel comfortable to redbl.

Fly

[luis]

I wonder what kind of relief do you plan to get with this one Ben...
With Axxx,Kxx,Axx,Jx we have agreed to open 1d what do you open with Axxx,Kxx,Axx,Jx ?
:-)

[inquiry]

luis, on Mar 12 2004, 09:53 AM, said:

I wonder what kind of relief do you plan to get with this one Ben...
With Axxx,Kxx,Axx,Jx we have agreed to open 1d what do you open with Axxx,Kxx,Axx,Jx ?
:-)

Hi Luis,

Sadly, I don't expect much relief from this poll. The hand you show is a sound opener for us. In fact, as I showed in another thread today, my partner opened the following hand 1♣, which is fine by me.

Scoring: IMP

---

And my partner would open 1♦ on the hand you showed without hestitation. This light opening style is why this is a harder problem that it seems. I see three possible bids (none of which are redouble, btw), and am trying to decide if one of these should be a stand out. I will say the one I choose did not work so well, but perhaps it should have worked better. After some votes, I will give some like continuations to see how people would bid the second time (if they get a second time).

Ben

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on Mar 12 2004, 05:19 PM, said:

This was one of those hands I rather forget. Our agreement after 1♦-X is....

• Redouble = 11+ hcp, and willingness to double them in some contacts. Tends to deny support for partner
  
• 1NT = transfer to 2♣, tends to deny support for ♦ but can be lead directional
  
• 2D = weak ♦ raise, and semi-preemptive, think 0 to 7 pts
  
• 2C = constructive ♦ raise or better. Tends not to be balanced
  
• 2NT = very weak ♦ raise
  
• 3D = preemptive ♦ raise, but stronger than 2NT
  
• 3C = fit jump, ♣ cards, generally 5 but 4 will do, and ♦ fit with enough for 3 level
  
• Pass = can include balance hand, 10/11 points, and can reenter with optional double on next round.

Scoring: IMP

---

West    North   East    South
        1♦      Dbl      ?

"Show support with support": Its and oldie, but a goodie.

I think that 2C is the "right" bid. You have 4 card support for an opening that almost always shows 4+ Diamonds. I'm not going to worry about suit quality with an 8 card fit.

XX looks corrct on strength, but it suggested interest in a cooperative penalty double. More significantly, XX denies a fit. If you redouble on this hand, partner is not going to be able to evaluate the defensive strength of his Diamond cards.

I'd prefer to have some kind of mixed raise available and immediately force the bidding tot he 3 level, but such is life.

It seems strange that your 2NT response is weaker that an immediate 3D raise.
Is this based on some assumption regarding the relative frequency of the two bids?

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Mar 12 2004, 03:02 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

Ben

What is the point to open this hand? THis is not an offensive hand, with only 11 bad points. If it is sth like:
S: AXX
H: JXX
D: KQJXXX
C: X

I donot mind open it. But the hand you gave is ugly.


Fly

[Trpltrbl]

Playing your system, bid what you have. Isn't that why you play a system like that ?

Mike

[hrothgar]

[quote name='flytoox' date='Mar 12 2004, 06:17 PM'] [quote name='inquiry' date='Mar 12 2004, 03:02 PM']

Scoring: IMP

---

What is the point to open this hand? THis is not an offensive hand, with only 11 bad points. If it is like:
S: AXX
H: JXX
D: KQJXXX
C: X

I do not mind open it. But the hand you gave is ugly. [/quote]
The hand in question is perfectly average:

The hand is slightly stronger than normal. It has two jacks and is chock full of nice intermediaries like the 98 of diamonds, the 9 od Hearts, and the T of clubs.

Balanced against this, the hand is 4-3-3-3 which is not one of my favorite shapes.

In any case, many people, myself included, believe that it is losing bridge to play system that force you to pass with "normal" hands like the one in question. Its far better to start describing your hand as quickly as possible rather than letting the oppinents establish the tempo of the auction.

Using a single bid like "Pass" to show 60% of all the hands that you are going to get dealt is losing bridge.

[joker_gib]

Hi Ben,

Not sure of a ♦ fit as my partner can only have 3♦. I would rdbl and if partner doesn't dbl them in major I will be sure that he has 4♦ !

If partner dbl I think I would pass with ♥A and ♣AQ which are very good defensive tricks

Alain

[flytoox]

[quote name='hrothgar' date='Mar 12 2004, 03:42 PM'] [quote name='flytoox' date='Mar 12 2004, 06:17 PM'] [quote name='inquiry' date='Mar 12 2004, 03:02 PM']

Scoring: IMP

---

What is the point to open this hand? THis is not an offensive hand, with only 11 bad points. If it is like:
S: AXX
H: JXX
D: KQJXXX
C: X

I do not mind open it. But the hand you gave is ugly. [/QUOTE]
The hand in question is perfectly average:

The hand is slightly stronger than normal. It has two jacks and is chock full of nice intermediaries like the 98 of diamonds, the 9 od Hearts, and the T of clubs.

Balanced against this, the hand is 4-3-3-3 which is not one of my favorite shapes.

In any case, many people, myself included, believe that it is losing bridge to play system that force you to pass with "normal" hands like the one in question. Its far better to start describing your hand as quickly as possible rather than letting the oppinents establish the tempo of the auction.

Using a single bid like "Pass" to show 60% of all the hands that you are going to get dealt is losing bridge. [/quote]
If you open this hand, then you will play 3N most of time when pd has 11-12points. I think that is really losing birdge. What bad can happen if you have a game? Pd must have a sound opening hand for a game facing your hand. Given your balanced hand, all others are more likely to have balanced hand. SO it wont hurt if you pass.


But if you open, you are more likely to overbid and get down.

[hrothgar]

>If you open this hand, then you will play 3N most of time
>when pd has 11-12points. I think that is really losing bridge.

The decision to open this hand has an impact of the rest of the system.
One of the most important is that partner can not arbitrarily force to 3N just because he "happens" to have 11 HCP opposite an opening bid.

>What bad can happen if you have a game?

I don't know about you, but I seem to get dealt more hands that compete over part scores than ones suitable to play in game. Maybe I'm just unlucky.

[flytoox]

hrothgar, on Mar 12 2004, 04:16 PM, said:

>If you open this hand, then you will play 3N most of time
>when pd has 11-12points. I think that is really losing bridge.

The decision to open this hand has an impact of the rest of the system.
One of the most important is that partner can not arbitrarily force to 3N just because he "happens" to have 11 HCP opposite an opening bid.

>What bad can happen if you have a game?

I don't know about you, but I seem to get dealt more hands that compete over part scores than ones suitable to play in game. Maybe I'm just unlucky.

Yes, whether you should force to 3N is up to opening style. The problem with light opening is, pd tend to think you have a sound opening hand. So, in an uncontested hand, he will tend to overbid, rather than unberdbid. In a contested auction, if you open this hand, then pd will either misguess your shape or strength. I agree that part-score is as important as game contract. But the problem is that opening this kind hand without characteristic lightly will only misguide your pd.


Fly

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Mar 12 2004, 10:02 AM, said:

It seems strange that your 2NT response is weaker that an immediate 3D raise.
Is this based on some assumption regarding the relative frequency of the two bids?

Not really. A natural 2NT is not needed, because if you had a balanced hand, no real fit, and enough for 2NT, you can start with REDOUBLE. I mean, that is sort of what the redouble is for (if you are not playing as DrTodd does).

Ok, once a natural 2NT is gone, what do you do with really good raises? You can start with the 2♣ transfer to 2♦ and then bid again. If you want to invite, rebid 2NT. If you want to force, bid something else. So in fact, your 2♣ bid shows a lower limit, but not an upper one when a fit exist.

Thus 2NT as a forcing ♦ raise isn't needed either. Now if you decide to play 2NT as a weakish raise, say to separate really preemptive raise to 3♦ from mildly preemptive based upon LOTT, which one should be weaker? Some of the time when you raise weakly, you will catch your partner with a very good hand. And if you do, what is the most likely game contract? 3NT. But to make 3NT you will probably have to have the stronger of the two weak raises. If you use 2NT for this bid, in all likelyhood, however, you have wrong-sided the contract, with the opening lead coming through your parnter and up to the strongest opponent hand. In addition, the opening leader (assuming his partner is 4441 distribution), will have a fair idea which is their longest suit on defense, and is likely to get off the the best lead.

So there you go, that is the bridge logic we used to decide to play it this way... little to do with frequency, and more to deal with constructive raises and mildly preemptive versus bold face weak preempts, and right-siding 3NT when it is availlable to be played.

Ben

[the hog]

I think I'd try 2C playing your agreements here, Ben, even though this tends to be unbalanced. I'd be a bit worried about playing in a weakish 4-3 fit after a fsj.

[luke warm]

well i voted 'pass' since that's exactly what i have... since it shows a decent defensive hand, i suppose a double by you later is penalty? you always have diamonds to fall back on, tho that isn't necessarily safe

[the hog]

You can't pass with a 10 count opposite an opening bid. What do you do if partner does not have a suitable hand to re open and 3N by you happens to be in the refrigerator. Hard to explain to partners....

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Mar 13 2004, 03:55 AM, said:

You can't pass with a 10 count opposite an opening bid. What do you do if partner does not have a suitable hand to re open and 3N by you happens to be in the refrigerator. Hard to explain to partners....

i thought that was their agreement?? maybe i misread the post, but it appeared to me that pass said "i have a balanced 10/11 count"... if that's what pass means, pass is the bid

btw, partner supposedly knows i have 10/11 balanced, so he knows he can reopen... my hand, by definition, is defensive in nature else i can show belated support or bid a suit

[inquiry]

Ok, time for more of the shameful story of this bothersome hand....like the majority of the players here, I decided that his hand would best be described as "balanced" 9/10/11 range. So I passed. I heard the following auction.

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South
    1♦ Dbl Pass
1♠  2♦  Pass  2♠  ??

Ok, here are your agreement options now are

1) DBL shows balance hand 10/11 points,

2) 2NT is good/bad givne the context of the bidding, probably going to show bad hand with support of ♦ that you didn't raise earlier (think 3 ♦s),

3) 3♦, well that will be "better" or good support. Why is 2NT not the balanced 10/11?

4) 3♠ - forcing cue-bid clearly showing the balance hand, but without a ♠ stopper, so must be some support.

I will not take a poll. I bid 3♦, partner passed. My hand is too offensive after parnters 2♦ free rebid to bid only 3♦, I must take a shot with 3♠. The hand makes 3NT or 6♦ on a ♦ hook (it was on). And five ♦ is laydown. I think the lesson is support with support. I am thinking now the fit jump might be better than the 2♣ bid. 2♣ gets us to 3NT, 3♣ might get us to slam

Darn.

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben!

Spoiler

------

I agree with your first pass, because lack of honours in ♦, not sure fit, 3 QT (2 in ♣ after dbl) and near perfect optional double over ♥. The near forgotten art of penalize is good addition to our style in recent days of aggressive bidding. Opponents often tend to overbid after take out double and passing from opponents and this is one of nice position to catch them.

Spoiler

------

But after free 2♦ rebid from your partner, despite it may be based on distribution, your hand improve dramatically and is at least quasi game force to 4♦, because superfit and 2A. It is true that 3♦ show good hand unlike 2NT, but not that good as you, not GF. Your 3♠ cue bid is clear like a tear: you have relative bal hand with no shortness in ♠, but doubleton because can't double optional; you have high cards (QT) to make underlimit 3NT based on playable suit and this suit is probably ♦, because else you can bid 3♣; You don't have good ♦ support, but have it, because without 3♠, 4♥ and 6♣ what else you have?

Spoiler

------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[Trpltrbl]

Does the free 2♦ bid by pd show, extras, or just minimums with a ♦ suit ?
Does it tend to show a balanced or unbalanced hand ?

Mike