[joker_gib]

It would never cross my mind to pass this !

[babalu1997]

awm, on Apr 23 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

My feeling is that there is some advantage to bids promising a particular shape. For example:

So my point is that while bidding minimum 3145 hands differently depending on the quality of the suits seems to make some sense on the surface, you end up not getting any of these three nice guarantees! I'd rather pick some particular distortion (my preference being the 1NT rebid on singleton) and stick to it, so that in the other two cases we get the advantages mentioned.

thanks everyone for the different ideas, and as AWM states it is not quite simple.
My question, was really what do you do after you open the hand, and there have been many interesting procedures by very experienced players.

Again making reference to the original hand, which was:

♠ JT9
♥ 3
♦ QJT7
♣ AKJxx

There was a time when I would open this hand, but now i would not, especially with a pick up partner. Does that mean I have to forever hold my peace? No.
I think i have a rebid after I pass, and here are the 2 situations:

pass- 1 heart by opp - p- 2h by opp - DBL BY ME

pass-pass-pass- 1 heart by opp- DBL BY ME

pass- pass- 1 heart by partner - pass - 1nt force by me

If partner opens anything else my rebid is easy.

[babalu1997]

mike777, on Apr 23 2008, 10:19 PM, said:

5) this is the type of hand and discussion that convinced me when I came back to bridge that discussing what an opening one bid or preempt bid is the highest priority in discussing a system....there are other important issues but this is number one.

There was a time when I had nothing to write on my profile, so I wrote jokes.

That did not work, so I started having alphabet soup for lunch, 201, nmf, fsf, etc...

Most auctions are contested so I truly stopped caring about the conventions-- the alphabet soup is no guarantee that the bids are consistent with the conventions anyway.

So now I have in my profile-- sound opens, overcalls, sane doubles and redoubles.

And yes, I would rather know how much the hcp and distribution points in partners hands are worth.

[kfay]

babalu1997, on Apr 24 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

awm, on Apr 23 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

My feeling is that there is some advantage to bids promising a particular shape. For example:

So my point is that while bidding minimum 3145 hands differently depending on the quality of the suits seems to make some sense on the surface, you end up not getting any of these three nice guarantees! I'd rather pick some particular distortion (my preference being the 1NT rebid on singleton) and stick to it, so that in the other two cases we get the advantages mentioned.

thanks everyone for the different ideas, and as AWM states it is not quite simple.
My question, was really what do you do after you open the hand, and there have been many interesting procedures by very experienced players.

Again making reference to the original hand, which was:

♠ JT9
♥ 3
♦ QJT7
♣ AKJxx

There was a time when I would open this hand, but now i would not, especially with a pick up partner. Does that mean I have to forever hold my peace? No.
I think i have a rebid after I pass, and here are the 2 situations:

pass- 1 heart by opp - p- 2h by opp - DBL BY ME

pass-pass-pass- 1 heart by opp- DBL BY ME

pass- pass- 1 heart by partner - pass - 1nt force by me

If partner opens anything else my rebid is easy.

If you pass this hand, partner will never believe you have an opener.

I'm sorry for putting it like this but the very thought that someone passes this hand 1st seat makes me LOL. You will be a MUCH better bridge player if you open these. Because not opening them, frankly, is awful.

Seeing as how there are minimum opening hands that partner can hold that makes slam a 50% shot or better... etc. etc. etc.

There are a million reasons that have already been stated as to whether to open this hand. And yes probably even Al Roth would have opened it. Doesn't that say something?

My advice is take the advice of others and open.


I just got to reading the bottom of the quoted post and all of these actions are fine but partner's definitely going to 'expect' 4S from you since you're not even under a lot of pressure. You can describe a hand with 3 spades and the minors and short hearts much more easily if you just open! Now you're trying to catch up for not opening and it's just not really the best option.

What are you doing if the opponents bid spades? Or diamonds? I'd hardly like to double then and we might have game on in a number or strains.

[jtfanclub]

babalu1997, on Apr 24 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

pass- pass- 1 heart by partner - pass - 1nt force by me

OK, your partner opens 1 heart
You say 1NT
Your partner will say 2♣ about 75% of the time (3+ cards).

What do you say now?

[pclayton]

jtfanclub, on Apr 24 2008, 07:21 AM, said:

babalu1997, on Apr 24 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

pass- pass- 1 heart by partner - pass - 1nt force by me

OK, your partner opens 1 heart
You say 1NT
Your partner will say 2♣ about 75% of the time (3+ cards).

What do you say now?

2♠ but thats another story I'm sure.

[jdonn]

I think the point is just because you can show this shape after passing doesn't really matter, since you can never show a hand this good after passing.

[skjaeran]

pclayton, on Apr 23 2008, 07:39 PM, said:

Last night with Gnome I picked up: JT9, Kxx, T8xx, AKJ and opened. We got to a skinny 3N when he held: Ax, ATx, KJxx, Txxx. It rolled with a moderately favorable opening lead away from the ♥QJ9xxx and a little luck in diamonds to produce three tricks.

With my regular we'd bid this:
1♣ - 1NT (10-12)
pass

Ending in the contract you should reach with these two hands.

[babalu1997]

jtfanclub, on Apr 24 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

babalu1997, on Apr 24 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

pass- pass- 1 heart by partner - pass - 1nt force by me

OK, your partner opens 1 heart
You say 1NT
Your partner will say 2♣ about 75% of the time (3+ cards).

What do you say now?

2 clubs limits the hand, I says 3nt, he has to have something in spades.

Opps dble, we get a top.

[jtfanclub]

babalu1997, on Apr 24 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

2 clubs limits the hand, I says 3nt, he has to have something in spades.

He's a third hand opener, with a limited hand, who has shown hearts and clubs.

He could have a singleton in spades for all you know.

[mike777]

"And yes probably even Al Roth would have opened it. Doesn't that say something?"

I have my doubts that Al roth would have opened it but perhaps you got a quote from some book or something which would show he would.

If partner knows you pass 12-13 hcp often, very often I think you are stuck bidding 2nt over a 1h opener by pard or playing forcing 1nt by a passed hand. 2c would be some type of drury bid. Of course the opp may bid something which may make showing this hand easier.

But bottom line the forum posters have stated over and over you should not pass this type of hand in first or second seat and expect to win.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Apr 24 2008, 03:55 PM, said:

babalu1997, on Apr 24 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

2 clubs limits the hand, I says 3nt, he has to have something in spades.

He's a third hand opener, with a limited hand, who has shown hearts and clubs.

He could have a singleton in spades for all you know.

Or there could very easily be slam, even opposite a relatively moderate opener.

Give partner Ax AKxxx x Qxxxx and clubs is over 50% to make 6 and essentially certain to make 5, and you are probably down on a spade lead in 3NT. There are many such hands.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Apr 25 2008, 12:34 AM, said:

"And yes probably even Al Roth would have opened it. Doesn't that say something?"

I have my doubts that Al roth would have opened it but perhaps you got a quote from some book or something which would show he would.

I'm also not sure whether Roth would have opened this hand

The hand seems borderline for his sound opening style
The hand is short in Spades which Roth considers a big flaw
The rebid after 1♣ - 1♠ is flawed at best

I just looked through Picture Bidding. I couldn't find any examples of openings that match this hand. Then again, I didn't find any passes either