[Ant590]

You hold

♠ KQJxxxx
♥ KJx
♦ x
♣ xx

You're first seat favorable vulnerability (IMPs) and open 1♠.

1♠ - (2NT*) - dbl** - (3♣)
pass - (pass) - 3♥ - (4♣)

* minors
** pens of at least one minor at the 3-level

1) Do you agree with the initial (forcing) pass after 3♣?
2) What do you bid now?

[P_Marlowe]

Did partner have the option to introduce
hearts in a (non)-forcing way earlier?

#1 No, I play spades
#2 see #1, since 3H shows at best heart values
and a diamond stopper

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

No I would have opened 4♠. Failing to do so I would have bid 3♠ earlier round.

Now 4♥.

[Free]

helene_t, on Apr 22 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

No I would have opened 4♠. Failing to do so I would have bid 3♠ earlier round.

Now 4♥.

Agree

[whereagles]

most obvious 4♠ opener EVAR

4♠ now, of course.

[catch22]

I'd have bid 4S on all three of the oppertunities I had to bid

[Codo]

This is no classical 4 ♠ opening bid fav. to my partners, so I open 1 ♠.

I don't like this sort of double you use against 2 NT. Funnily they never play in my 5 card diamond suit, but always in my short suit. So, I would take another defence to 2NT, but this is not the point.

Anyway, now I bid 4 ♥.

I think the problem is much worse, if the bidding had been:
1♠ (2NT) X (3♦)
pass (pass)

Whats partners call with x,AQxx,xxx,AQJxx? He cannot double he cannot bid 3 NT or 3 Spade, so his choices are 3 HEart and pass.

After the given auction, he surely has 5 Hearts.

[Ant590]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 22 2008, 03:59 AM, said:

Did partner have the option to introduce
hearts in a (non)-forcing way earlier?

Yeah, we play 3♥ over 2NT as non-forcing (3♣ over 2NT would be forcing with hearts)

Thanks for all your comments - as it happens 4♥ makes 10 and 4♠ makes 7, and to boot I received a double for my trouble in spades... Almost certainly opening 4♠ avoids the double, but on this particular layout is not optimal.

[P_Marlowe]

Ant590, on Apr 22 2008, 06:13 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Apr 22 2008, 03:59 AM, said:

Did partner have the option to introduce
hearts in a (non)-forcing way earlier?

Yeah, we play 3♥ over 2NT as non-forcing (3♣ over 2NT would be forcing with hearts)

Thanks for all your comments - as it happens 4♥ makes 10 and 4♠ makes 7, and to boot I received a double for my trouble in spades... Almost certainly opening 4♠ avoids the double, but on this particular layout is not optimal.

is there an explanation, why partner did not
show hearts direct?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenrexford]

Honor the Swan and avoid a Goose Egg.

[Ant590]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 22 2008, 06:29 AM, said:

is there an explanation, why partner did not
show hearts direct?

With kind regards
Marlowe

Well the idea for us usually is that if we can penalize one minor, and partner the other we can penalize either minor. So my partner (who held ♦AJTxx) doubled 2NT as he could penalize diamonds, and I would double 3♣ if I could have done, which is often the case, although not here.

[Apollo81]

I would have bid 3♠ over 3♣.

[P_Marlowe]

Ant590, on Apr 22 2008, 08:12 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Apr 22 2008, 06:29 AM, said:

is there an explanation, why partner did not
show hearts direct?

With kind regards
Marlowe

Well the idea for us usually is that if we can penalize one minor, and partner the other we can penalize either minor. So my partner (who held ♦AJTxx) doubled 2NT as he could penalize diamonds, and I would double 3♣ if I could have done, which is often the case, although not here.

I think your are better of most of the time,
if you bid your suits, in case you are fairly
unbal., e.g. if you hold 5-5.
In other words a double of 2NT should show
a fairly bal. hand, but given the vulnerability,
they being red, going for blood is certainly
not be the worst idea.

As it is, and given my personal style, in the given
sequence, I am hard pressed to believe that partners
3H bid showed a real suit.
......................................................................
Similar your pass should also show a fairly bal.
hand, because partner should also double if happens
to hold xxx in clubs and some bal. shape.

But that may just one of my own wired ideas.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Interesting discussion. How much does opener need to double 3m for penalties if we start with a double of 2N? How much do we need in the doubled suit in order to sit for the double?

Btw, is it standard that the double of 2N sets up a forcing pass? I don't think I play FP here with Shogi but will have to check.

[gwnn]

I don't like this 1♠ opener at all. I'd like to open 3.5♠, but I'll have to round it up to 4. Otherwise I agree with catch22.

[dcvetkov]

I agree with P Marlowe that dbl on 2Nt should show fairly balanced hands, and at least 4 cards in one of the minors, short in opener suit. This doubles sometimes wokr wonders, but one of the defenders needs to have 4 trumps. If you have support for opener, or a good suit ( like maybe 6 hearts in this case), it is better to make forcing bid. You may even have a slam.