[Vilgan]

So I am trying to enhance our unit's webpage a bit by showing hand records and scores of each pair for that board online, similar to how San Diego's unit does it.

However, I'm not seeing a way to have a record after the fact in a way that doesn't either involve a: premade hand records which means 4 people cannot play a set of boards or b: lots of work either before or after by the director setting up hands or recording what each hand was into a program. I can write a program for the director to enter in hands, merge that with a game file, and create a web page. However, this still involves the director sitting there for like 20 minutes after the game entering in all the hands.

Is there some sort of way to do this that doesn't involve the director sitting there? Leaning towards hand records made via a software program for each game (then its fairly easy to merge the files). However, on nights where we have like 6 tables, that can kinda suck.

Anyways.. is there a good solution to this? I'm guessing not.. might just go with the hand records method. But thought I'd toss a shout out in case there was a way around it that didn't involve lots of work for the director or 1 table not being able to play a set of cards.

Thanks for any advice!

Eric

[TimG]

A dealing machine?

[Vilgan]

TimG, on Apr 4 2008, 12:00 PM, said:

A dealing machine?

Our unit looked into that once, but as I recall it was pretty expensive. Something like 2-3 thousand is what our president said. Are there any deal machines that are a bit more affordable?

[Cascade]

Without a dealing machine ...

I have dealt a set of boards (24-27 or so) from hand records in around 1/2 hr. You can do this a bit faster if you ask the players after they have played the hands to strip them into suits with each suit ordered.

I have no idea what a unit is but here in New Zealand our club - non-profit making organization with around 250 members - just purchased its second dealing machine.

[blackshoe]

A unit is a subdivision of a district, which is a subdivision of the ACBL. There are, iirc, 24 districts, and a hundred and some odd units.

Unit tournaments are called "sectionals" and district tournaments are called "regionals". Don't ask me why.

Our unit treasurer calculated. I believe, that the duplimate machine (and the two dozen or so board sets) we bought paid for itself in the first year. Don't ask me how.

[TimG]

blackshoe, on Apr 4 2008, 04:17 PM, said:

A unit is a subdivision of a district, which is a subdivision of the ACBL. There are, iirc, 24 districts, and a hundred and some odd units.

I'm a member of District 25. But, that doesn't mean there aren't 24 Districts.

[Cascade]

blackshoe, on Apr 5 2008, 10:17 AM, said:

A unit is a subdivision of a district, which is a subdivision of the ACBL. There are, iirc, 24 districts, and a hundred and some odd units.

Unit tournaments are called "sectionals" and district tournaments are called "regionals". Don't ask me why.

Our unit treasurer calculated. I believe, that the duplimate machine (and the two dozen or so board sets) we bought paid for itself in the first year. Don't ask me how.

We have 250 or so members at our club. If the dealing machine costs $5000 and it lasts around 5-10 years (our first one is approaching 10 years old with very little maintenance). We are talking peanuts per session per player.

[Mbodell]

Around here the vast majority of games are run with hand records and premade boards. People usually sort and suit the cards at the end of the game which helps reduce the length of time it takes to make a board. Also, you can produce dealing instructions that show less information about the hand if the person making the hand also has to play them (like a playing director). Something like instructions that the first card goes West and the next two North and the next one South etc. assuming the deck has already been suited and sorted.

[Vilgan]

Sounds like the best idea is to just pre-generate hands and hand records, and then merge the file used to make this w/ the game file and have it output in an html format.

Going to play w/ merging now. Thanks to those who sent me the files.

[mycroft]

I know our sister unit pays for their dealing machine by charging $10/set to tournaments. Even if we only make up 2 sets per session and hand record the rest (which was our practice), that's $80 for a 6-session standard sectional. I think it was $60 or $90 for the CNTC qualifier. That pays for a $5000 investment reasonably quickly; at the cost of about one team on Sunday for the tournament.

[hrothgar]

For what its worth, I recently made an (informal) proposal to the District 25 treasurer that that the Eastern Massachusetts Bridge Association (EMBA) should start using Dealing Machines.

I specifically recommend a scheme by which

1. Individual clubs would purchase dealing machines.
2. EMBA and District 25 would enter into a long term agreement to rent said dealing machines for use in Regionals and Sectionals

(I'm also happy with a scheme by which the District would purchase the machines but agree to rent them out to local clubs. I prefer the original system because several local clubs have already invested in dealing machines which the Unit and the District don't have access to any. Either way, I'd like to see a system implemented by which the fixed cost of the capital expenditure is spread across as many sessions as possible)

This suggestion fell upon deaf ears.

I suspect, but can't prove, that the major problem is with the TD staff. None of the tournament directors/organizers have any experience with Dealing Machines. Switching over to a system that used said machines would require doing something different that before, which simply can't be done... (It certainly can't be done if large portions of your TD staff is pushing 70 and has no desire for any kind of change from their comfortable routines)

[TimG]

I don't know about the change in routine, but I do know about extra work. When dealing machines are in use, the directing staff would be responsible for the duplication. Given that the status quo is for players to duplicate in pair games and for there to be no duplication in team events, it shouldn't be hard to see why the directing staff would not be enthusiastic about a move to dealing machines.

[david_c]

TimG, on Apr 7 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

I don't know about the change in routine, but I do know about extra work.  When dealing machines are in use, the directing staff would be responsible for the duplication.

Duplimating is a separate job. It could be done by (one of) the directors, but it usually isn't. The directors are supposed to check one board from each set of 8 to make sure there isn't a set which has been forgotten, but that's about it. (I was also told to check the boards are in the right order, since if they aren't it's possible they've been given the wrong hands.)

Of course you do actually have to get someone to make up the boards, which is why it costs up to $10 per set of 24.

This post has been edited by david_c: 2008-April-07, 11:55

[TimG]

david_c, on Apr 7 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

TimG, on Apr 7 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

I don't know about the change in routine, but I do know about extra work.  When dealing machines are in use, the directing staff would be responsible for the duplication.

Duplimating is a separate job. It could be done by (one of) the directors, but it usually isn't. The directors are supposed to check one board from each set to make sure there isn't a set which has been forgotten, but that's about it. (I was also told to check the boards are in the right order, since if they aren't it's possible they've been given the wrong hands.)

Of course you do actually have to get someone to make up the boards, which is why it costs about $10 per set.

I think as a practical matter, in an ACBL Regional tournament, the directors would be responsible for duplication. If the District is responsible for hire extra personnel to operate the machines, that would be unattractive to the District (extra cost).

[Cascade]

Jlall, on Apr 8 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

The NY clubs use dealing machines but since they charge $25/person per session I guess they can afford it lol.

Wow - our table money was $3 last year with some discount if you buy 10 games at once (11 games for $30) These are NZ dollars so around $US25.

The price has gone up this year and I am not sure to how much - maybe $4-$5 per game.

[barmar]

$25/person/session at a club? That's twice as much our District 25 regionals, and $10 more than the regional events at NABCs. I sure hope they provide good refreshements!

Here in the Boston area most club games are about $6-7, but a couple of clubs have managed to purchase duplicating machines. At the club I frequent most, the director bought it with his own money, and the club rents it for a few dollars a week -- he's not expecting to break even for several years.

[blackshoe]

We have a local association here — RABA (The Rochester Area Bridge Association). I'm not sure how it came about, but it runs a twice a year "championship" game, awards prizes for various things, and has probably more money in the bank than any of the clubs around here. So RABA bought a duplimate machine, and is not charging the clubs to use it.

Some of the club owners were skeptical at first, and so were some players. Most of them have changed their minds, although in the former case it may be that they're just acceding to what the players want.

Sometime last year, most of the clubs around here went from $6 to $6.50 for table fees. There was some whinging, but players have come to accept it. Hm. Maybe it's time to raise them again.

[skjaeran]

Here in Norway we have 25 District Federations and about 460 clubs. I guess 25-30% of the clubs and maybe 20% of the DFs own their own dealing machine. I guess half the clubs and all DFs use duplicated boards and play barometer tournaments. Normal price paid if you rent boards is 1.25-2 NOK (0.25-0.40 USD) pr board. It's normal to pay the person doing the duplication 0.5 NOK (0.1 USD) for pr. board for the job (some might charge more - I don't know.)

Playing in Oslo I pay 70 NOK (14 USD) to play (normally 27 boards, 32 in the district teams). Playing weekend tournaments the entry fee is normally 200-250 NOK (40-45 USD) for a 1-day event and 350-500 NOK (70-100 USD) for a 2-day event.