[akhare]

awm, on Apr 11 2008, 01:04 AM, said:

Basically, you are doing roughly the same as symmetric on these hands. However:

(1) You generally do slightly better on the very rare shapes and slightly worse on the very common shapes. This is bad.

(2) The scheme seems more complex/harder to remember than symmetric.

Agree with the above (and with awm, Free, Josh, Ron, et all).

Factor #2 is especially important in a long matches where fatigue comes into the picture -- it's board 55 of a 64 board session -- do you still know what your relays are ?

[benlessard]

Ive finished the whole chart. I dont think there any mistakes. But please double check

A=reverser
B=5-5
C=High short
D= 5422 equal ----- 5-5 H short
E= low short 1st hand ------55 (6511)
F= low short 2nd hand ----- 55 low short 1st hand


MY METHOD--------SYMM RELAYS
5422=D........3C......3C..........D
4522=AD......3C......3C..........AD
5431=BD......3C......3D..........E
4531=E........3D......3D...........AE
5413=AE......3D......3D...........CE
4513=BE......3D......3D...........ACE
5521=CE......3D......3H...........BF
5512=ACE....3D......3H...........BDF
6421=F........3H.......3H...........F
4621=AF......3H.......3H...........AF
6412=BF......3H.......3H...........CF
4612=CF......3H.......3H...........ACF
5530=ACF....3H.......3S...........BG
5503=G........3S.......3S..........BDG
6430=AG......3S.......3S..........G
4630=BG......3S.......3S..........AG
6403=CG......3S.......3S..........CG
4603=ACG....3S.......3S..........ACG
6511=H........3nt.......3S...........BEG (3D--3H---3S i assume)
5611=AH......3nt.......3Nt..........BEH (3D--3H--3Nt i assume)
6520=BH......3nt.......3Nt.........BH
5620=CH......3nt.......4C.........BI
6502=ACH....3nt......3Nt.........BDH
5602=I..........4C......4C.........BDI

Not an important gain but a gain nonetheless.I expect the gain of my method to be smaller with balanced hands or when there is no reverser.

Every new method is always more complex then methods you already known. The "core" of my method is certainly much easier then symm relays where you have 3 core(balanced,2 suiters single suiters) + reverser with sub menus everywhere.

As for learning 3 full chart i would be kidding myself to say its easy but i dont think its that complicated. You always learn a couple by heart with mnemonics tricks and work downward. Also when you bidding practice on the net you can have them printed and slowly you will learn them by heart.

Of course if you screw up you will be more screwed then symm relays because hand and not classified by familiarity. Another downside is if they X for lead and the other guy raise the X you are stuck because the information are worthless if they are not conveyed as a whole (but its quite rare)

[awm]

You've also misplaced all 7420 hands, which resolve in symmetric at 3NT and for you in 4♣.

Basically your scheme is:

3 hands resolve in 3♣; 5 in 3♦; 5 in 3♥; 5 in 3♠; 5 in 3NT; 5 in 4♣; etc.

Symmetric is:

2 hands resolve in 3♣; 4 in 3♦; 6 in 3♥; 7 in 3♠; 7 in 3NT

So you get one extra hand in 3♣ and one extra in 3♦. But by the time we are counting the number of hands that resolve at 3NT or below, symmetric is ahead by 3 patterns (all 7420s). One of the nice things about symmetric is that virtually all patterns resolve at 3NT or below.

It also has the nice properties you mentioned, where you are actually getting useful information at each bid and might be able to stop relaying early, instead of just getting numeric data and having to wait for entire shape to resolve before you really know anything.

[joshs]

gwnn, on Apr 10 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

Apparently Dr. Roy Kerr solved some mathematical physics problems that Einstein could not have solved.

Dr. Roy Kerr designed Symmetric Relay.

erm...

Well Roy Kerr solved the field equations for a spinning black hole, and as a coincidence this discussion is making my head spin....

P.S. When was the last time you folded 4 Aces?

[Zelandakh]

Here's yet another way of handling balanced hands with an assymetric relay method. Comments welcome, flames not

Over 1♣

1♥ is 4+♠s including 4♠4♥32 hands
1♠ is most hands without a 4 card major
2♦ is balanced or 3-suited with 4-5♥s and 0-3♠s
2♥ is balanced with 4-5♠s and 2-3♥s
--

Specifically for balanced hands, after
1♣ - 1♥ // 1♠ - 1N // 2♣ - 2♦ // 2♥ - 2♠ // 2N
3♣ is 4423
3♦ is 4432
--

1♣ - 1♠ // 1N - 2♥ is balanced
then after 2♠ relay
2N = 5♣332
3♣ = 5♦332
3♦ = 4♣4♦32
3♥ = 3334
3♠ = 3343 + zoom
--

After 1♣ - 2♦ // 2♥
2N = 5♥332
3♣ = 4♥4♦32
3♦ = 3433
3♥ = 2434
3♠ = 3424 + zoom
--

After 1♣ - 2♥ // 2♠
2N = 5♠332
3♣ = 4♠4♦32
3♦ = 4333
3♥ = 4234
3♠ = 4324 + zoom
--

Not an attempt to reinvent SR which is just fine, but more designed to move things around within it in order to show/deny majors more quickly in case of 4th seat interference. Notice that is also quite possible to play (as)symmetric relays based around fragments rather than shortages - for me this is easier to remember than either SR or TOSR, for others it wouldn't be

For example, let's say we have 1-suited club hand. Instead of shortages we might show
2S = 6-7♣s, 3♥s
2N = 6-7♣s, 3♠s 0-2♥s
3♣ = 6-7♣s, 3♦s, 1-2♥s, 1-2♠s
3♦ = 2=2=2=7
3♥ and over = 8+♣s (choice of schemes)

and resolve each fragment in turn. I don't see any disadvantage to this approach other than remembering something other than you might be used to if you learnt SR first. There are specific diadvantages - this scheme resolves 7-4 hands at 3♠ but without separating out 7420/7411/7402 for an example given in the thread. And 5431 resolves at a different level to 5413 (3♠ versus 3♦) making the scheme assymmetric under the 'normal' definition of symmetry.

As for solving mathematical equations beyond Einstein, it is well established that maths was one of Albert's weakest areas despite his visionary genius. He needed special help with improving his maths ability for some of his proofs. Add to that the general improvements made in maths over the latter half of the 20th century, plus the raw power of modern computers, and it is easy to see why this is not in itself such a majot feat. However, being the first one to solve important (black holes are a pretty critical area of physics) equations amongst contemporaries, that's far more impressive...