[jillybean]

1♠ : 2♥
3♦ : 3♥

I just dont get this game, atleast I cant remember all the sequences, forcing, nf.

Playing SAYC (not 2/1!) does 3♥ create a gf?

[effervesce]

The 3♦ bid shows extras and is GF. With a weaker hand that can't GF, the opener would rebid 2♠ or 2NT.

[Echognome]

jillybean2, on Apr 9 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

1♠ : 2♥
3♦ : 3♥

I just dont get this game, atleast I cant remember all the sequences, forcing, nf.

Playing SAYC (not 2/1!) does 3♥ create a gf?

No. 3♦ does. Here's a simple rule to use "new suit at the 3-level creates a GF."

[jillybean]

OK I knew that , for the 2nd silly question

Are the responses after a 2/1 identical in SAYC as in 2/1?

[mikeh]

jillybean2, on Apr 10 2008, 11:12 AM, said:

OK I knew that  ,  for the 2nd silly question

Are the responses after a 2/1 identical in SAYC as in 2/1?

no

Well, really, the answer is 'it depends'

The concept that 3♦, in the original post, created a gf is termed a high-level reverse. One needs extras for this bid (and extras opposite a 10+ hand constitutes enough to force to game, even tho not always enough that game will make) because it drives the bidding so high opposite what may be only a misfitting 10 count.

In 2/1, the initial response established the gf.

Accordingly one (misguided, in my view) school of thought is that opener should show shape via his second bid, regardless of strength. This, in this method, 3♦ shows any 5-5 or even 5-4.

There are compelling reasons why this is NOT the majority approach.. why the majority approach remains that the high level reverse retains its 'extra values' meaning. One is that, when opener's strength is unkown, responder is often forced to decide on the final contract (especially 3N) with a wide range of hands. Say responder held a good 16 count... with, say, 1=5=3=4 shape or even 2=5=4=3 shape with good clubs and weakish diamonds. If opener is strong 5-5, a diamond slam beckons, but if he is weak 5-4, there may not even be safety in 4N or 5♦. So responder has to bid 3N... which is how he'd bid 2=5=2=4 13 counts!


Also, in SAYC, it becomes extremely important to know how big opener's 2N rebid is. Is it extra values? Say a 14-16 count, unsuitable for a 1N opening but enough to be forcing? Or is it a 12-13 count with scattered values? While this is also a topic for 2/1 players, it is not as critical, since all below-game calls are forcing, and 2N can be perhaps better defined in terms of shape and stopper location. And this area has implications for the meaning of the 2♠ rebid.

I know all of this can be confusing, but part of the beauty of the game is that the meaning one attributes to a particular sequence usually cannot be determined, or even assessed, without thinking about a lot of other sequences. Well, I think that is 'beauty'.. others may disagree

[ArtK78]

The other day I held:

QJTx
KQxxx
Qx
xx

The bidding started out:

1♥* - 2♣**
2♥ - 2♠

My partner and I play a light-opening version of Standard. My 1♥ opening showed 10 or more HCP. His 2♣ response was not game forcing - if he rebids 3♣ I can pass.

Over 2♠, I decided to leap to game (fast arrival) since we were in a game forcing auction. What I did not stop to consider is that partner's 2♠ bid might not be real - he could have a game forcing one suited hand with long clubs. Over 4♠ pard bid RKCB. I showed my zero key cards by bidding 5♦, and he bid 6♥.

The ♣J was led, and here is what I faced:

Ax
AJ
xx
AKQ9xxx

QJTx
KQxxx
Qx
xx

Oops. However, all is not lost. I won the trick in dummy, cashed three rounds of hearts. RHO showed out on the third round, leaving LHO with a good heart. I ran the clubs. LHO had an original club holding of JTx, so I was able to throw away all of my diamonds before he ruffed in, and later I got to throw away 3 spades on the good clubs.

Now that I got that out of the way, the point is that if you play 2/1 not game forcing, sometimes you are forced to improvise a forcing call (my partner's 2♠ call). One should be awake to the possibility that all is not as it seems. I was asleep, but fortunately I woke up before it was too late.

[mike777]

"Over 2♠, I decided to leap to game (fast arrival) since we were in a game forcing auction. What I did not stop to consider is that partner's 2♠ bid might not be real - he could have a game forcing one suited hand with long clubs"

I never played this style so I wonder why not just rebid 4clubs...setting clubs as trumps?

1h=2c
2h=4c?

For nonexperts I can see why it can really get confusing, opener is rebidding 2h which does not promise 6 hearts, opener cannot rebid 2s I guess since that may show extras and responder cannot rebid 3c since that is nonforcing so invents a bid with 2 spades...wow tough

Granted playing 2c as forcing to game creates a hole for me with an invite hand with long minor, 1major=3minor is not an option.
.

[awm]

Or for the old-fashioned solution (and part of SAYC!):

1♥ - 3♣ strong jump shift.

[ArtK78]

3♣ is not available when you play Bergen raises.

And a natural game forcing jump to 4♣ is all well and good, but it is hard to get to 3NT over 4♣.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Apr 9 2008, 11:34 PM, said:

1♠ : 2♥
3♦ : 3♥

I just dont get this game, atleast I cant remember all the sequences, forcing, nf.

Playing SAYC (not 2/1!) does 3♥ create a gf?

3D is a new suit at the 3 level, and bidding
a new suit on the 3 level creates a gf.

With kind regards
Marlowe