[dcvetkov]

Somehow, the fact that partner is most likely singleton ♥ on this auction escaped all the passers. Opponents will have 9 hearts here 9 times out of 10, if not more.
If that is the case, and we give partner 9 cards in minor, there is a strong argument for offence, with our rich control hand.
Partner has values with no clear direction.

I expect 5♣ to be cold and 6 to be very good.

OF course, not trying to be smart after seeing the hand;)

[TimG]

I think 3N was the primary culprit.

[hrothgar]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2008, 08:04 PM, said:

1♠ first round wtp.

PASS on the second. Why are people giving partner club support when we showed clubs?? His most likely shape by far is 3253, with 3262 coming in second. I expect a massacre here.

I agree with the rest of the peanut gallery that a 1♠ rebid seems clear.

I do have some questions about the relative frequency of a 3=2=5=3 hand versus a 3=2=6=2.

It might be a personal quirk but I'll frequently bid 1NT on a 5332 hand that seems appropriate for NT play. I wouldn't go so far as to say that 1♦ denies a minimum strength balanced hand, but it comes close...

[kenberg]

I believe that with your partner's hand I would have pulled 3NT to 4C. Inviting partner to bid nt and then pulling it when he does is a clear slam try. Of course partner (you) may not be as strong as you are, but 5C certainly should be safe.

Earlier though, I indicated that I would not have bid 3N with your hand either.

So the contract would not be 3N no matter which hand I held. Or so I think. Easy to say when looking it all over later.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Then let me continue the bid:

Pass 1♣ Pass 1♦
1♥ 1♠ 3♥* X
Pass ???

What now?

4♥. I have too much to bid just 4♣. I cannot imagine Pass or 3NT of some sort.

[TimG]

kenberg, on Apr 16 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

I believe that with your partner's hand I would have pulled 3NT to 4C. Inviting partner to bid nt and then pulling it when he does is a clear slam try. Of course partner (you) may not be as strong as you are, but 5C certainly should be safe.

Earlier though, I indicated that I would not have bid 3N with your hand either.

So the contract would not be 3N no matter which hand I held. Or so I think. Easy to say when looking it all over later.

Couldn't opener's heart stop be something like KJx, making 3NT more attractive?

[jtfanclub]

kenberg, on Apr 16 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

I believe that with your partner's hand I would have pulled 3NT to 4C. Inviting partner to bid nt and then pulling it when he does is a clear slam try. Of course partner (you) may not be as strong as you are, but 5C certainly should be safe.

Ewwwww

Pass 1♣ Pass 1♦
.1♥ 1♠ 3♥ X
Pass 3NT P

Why should 5 clubs be safe? Why can't your partner be 4-4-2-3? Why can't he be 4-3-3-3? Even if he has four clubs, why can't you have three club losers? Your partner hasn't shown much for strength, so with your mighty 12 count you may not even have the points for 11 tricks no matter what his shape is.

I think pulling 3NT is crazy.

[kenberg]

TimG, on Apr 16 2008, 07:56 AM, said:

kenberg, on Apr 16 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

I believe that with your partner's hand I would have pulled 3NT to 4C. Inviting partner to bid nt and then pulling it when he does is a clear slam try. Of course partner (you) may not be as strong as you are, but 5C certainly should be safe.

Earlier though, I indicated that I would not have bid 3N with your hand either.

So the contract would not be 3N no matter which hand I held. Or so I think. Easy to say when looking it all over later.

Couldn't opener's heart stop be something like KJx, making 3NT more attractive?

Yes, it could. That's the brief answer.

A longer answer might involve mps or imps although I think even at mps I would pull the 3NT. Slam is just too tempting, and playing in clubs, either 5C or 6C, looks good. . Our overall style might influence me also. It was said be several that after 1C-Pass-1D-(1H) the 1S bid promises an unbalanced hand. Maybe, but maybe not. Although even w/o Walsh type agreements the 1D bid suggests a lack of four spades, it does not deny four spades, even if playing Walsh. So opener will have some desire to get his spades in even of not heavily unbalanced.

But on balance, as the responder, I think I would make a slam try.

What is less clear to me is whether I would, as responder, double 3H. Several posters, a majority I think, if holding opener's hand would have passed the X, not a result I want. The problem is, what else to do. An immediate 4H bid over 3H may be ambiguous. With a strong hand, responder would have begun with 1D over 1C, holding 3-1-5-4 distribution as he has, and also with 4-1-5-3 distribution, which he doesn't have. Doubling and then pulling the 3NT to 4C gets the trump suit established and the strength announced, but it assumes that you get to pull 3NT. If partner passes the X, you don't.

Consider:
1C-pass-1D-1H
1S- 3H-?

At this point responder knows opener has an opening hand and perhaps he knows or believes opener has some shape. I don't see that he knows opener has all that much strength. It seems he might, on some hands, want to bid 4C simply as a competitive bid.. If that option is surrendered, making 4C forcing, then he can bid an immediate 4C as a trump-setting bid and a possible slam try. It's not clear to me that this is the default meaning of 4C. Those players with detailed understandings may wish to comment on how they play this.

Anyway, I approached this as a "where do you place your bet, not having close agreements" sort of problem and I place my bet on a slam try.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2008, 09:04 AM, said:

1♠ first round wtp.

PASS on the second. Why are people giving partner club support when we showed clubs?? His most likely shape by far is 3253, with 3262 coming in second. I expect a massacre here.

Well put.

We've shown our hand pattern with 1♠ and we have loads of defense against 3♥. If pard has 2=1 in the round suits, since will be a bloodbath.

[pclayton]

Hanoi5, on Apr 16 2008, 02:32 AM, said:

This is partner's hand:

---

Who should be blamed for not arriving to a slam?

Your partner gets the charge here. Pard's hand is pretty large knowing that I am unbalanced. There's nothing that isn't working except for the ♦AK, but even that is useful in places.

3♥ looks like its going for a ride in spite of their 10 card fit. If diamonds are 4-4, this could be down 4.

[Hanoi5]

You mean I should have passed his double?

[kenberg]

jtfanclub, on Apr 16 2008, 09:31 AM, said:

kenberg, on Apr 16 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

I believe that with your partner's hand I would have pulled 3NT to 4C. Inviting partner to bid nt and then pulling it when he does is a clear slam try. Of course partner (you) may not be as strong as you are, but 5C certainly should be safe.

Ewwwww

Pass 1♣ Pass 1♦
.1♥ 1♠ 3♥ X
Pass 3NT P

Why should 5 clubs be safe? Why can't your partner be 4-4-2-3? Why can't he be 4-3-3-3? Even if he has four clubs, why can't you have three club losers? Your partner hasn't shown much for strength, so with your mighty 12 count you may not even have the points for 11 tricks no matter what his shape is.

I think pulling 3NT is crazy.

Possibly it is crazy. With the original opening hand I was not in favor of 3NT, my choice over the double was 4H. Still...

I assume the opponents have 9 hearts. Under those circumstances (holding 22 non-hearts) it is certain we have an 8 card fit somewhere. With my AK of diamonds and stiff heart, the hand is very suit oriented. While 5C might go down, so might 3NT when partner doesn't have 9 top tricks after the opening heart lead.

Beyond my judgment, which I acknowledge may not be superb, there are some questions of interest (to me).

You allow that opener might have a flattish hand. Others have claimed that opener showed shape with his spade bid. The shape folks seem to be saying that 1C-pass-1D-(1H)-1S shows shape but I am not so sure. It matters. If opener is known to have shape, then maybe the club slam try looks more attractive.

After
1C-pass-1D-(1H)
1S- (3H)-?
what would 4C be? What would 4H be?

To me, these things are not clear. At the point responder is to choose a second bid he might wish to bid 4C passable (not drop dead but passable) on shape, he might wish to insist on game, he might wish to explore for slam, he might have clubs, he might have spades. A lot of possibilities with little room. I would be delighted to hear how these various hands are handled by those who have detailed agreements.

I see the actual responder's hand as grounds for optimism, although it could go wrong.

[dcvetkov]

I agree 100% with dbl on 3♥. It shows that hand nicely, values and 3-1-5-4 hand, with maybe 3-2-5-3 coming second , but as i said singleon ♥ is virtually certain in this auction.

I think opener has to realize slam potential in his hand, rich in controls and known club support ( yes, hard to visualize hand where partner has less then 3 ♣)
Come on, give partner just 2 black suit queens and 4 clubs, and 6 looks very good, even with all kind of diamond wastage. Finding about 7, would be almost impossible though.
I agree that 3H can be bloodbath, but I would go for offence.

[jtfanclub]

kenberg, on Apr 16 2008, 02:24 PM, said:

I assume the opponents have 9 hearts. Under those circumstances (holding 22 non-hearts) it is certain we have an 8 card fit somewhere. With my AK of diamonds and stiff heart, the hand is very suit oriented. While 5C might go down, so might 3NT when partner doesn't have 9 top tricks after the opening heart lead.

Part of the problem is that if partner does have an unbalanced hand, he's going to be short in diamonds. That means the AK of diamonds aren't terribly valuable in a club contract.

Let's see. You need to have four tricks in one of the black suits, or you aren't making 5♣, that's for sure. You surely have a heart trick, and two diamonds. That's seven. Could partner have a hand like...

Kxxx
Axx
x
AKxxx

Sure, why not? That hand will take 8 tricks and then lose the last 5, while it makes 6 clubs. On the other hand...

AKxx
Axxx
x
Kxxx

Well, 3NT sure looks a lot easier to me than 5♣.

Maybe you're right, crazy isn't the right word. If the 1♠ promises an unbalanced hand, then it seems like the more likely hands you're better off in clubs.

[mike777]

I think passing 3hx is clear with the north hand but then I would have bid 4c(forcing on this auction) not x with the south hand.