[gnasher]

benlessard, on Apr 9 2008, 01:13 PM, said:

AQT42
K9
Kxxx
xx

xx
AQJ10x
AQJ9
Kx
4Nt/4H/5D are quite better contract then 4S. Can you blame partner for bidding 4S over your 3S ?

Yes, I can. He knows I'm probably 2542 - with a 3541 minimum I'd have raised to 2♠ - so, even if he's not going to show his diamond support, he should still offer a choice between the majors. I think that the right way to do this is via 4♣, so that 4♥ can promise three card support and 4♦ can set trumps.

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on Apr 9 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

benlessard, on Apr 9 2008, 01:13 PM, said:

AQT42
K9
Kxxx
xx

xx
AQJ10x
AQJ9
Kx
4Nt/4H/5D are quite better contract then 4S. Can you blame partner for bidding 4S over your 3S ?

Yes, I can. He knows I'm probably 2542 - with a 3541 minimum I'd have raised to [2SP] - so, even if he's not going to show his diamond support, he should still offer a choice between the majors.

I agree with this.

For me the sample hand is a poor example, because it's either a raise of 2D to 3D immediately, or (if worth a game force) a 4D bid over 3S. But give responder a 5233 game force and the point is valid.

Quote

I think that the right way to do this is via 4♣, so that 4♥ can promise three card support and 4♦ can set trumps.

I don't agree with this. Given that 4H is (probably) a non-forcing slam try with 3 hearts and 4D agrees diamonds, you need some way to agree spades in a forcing manner, and 4C is the only way to do this. And you'd quite like some way to agree hearts in a forcing manner and you don't have that either...

It's a horrible auction. Move the order of the suits around and everything works much better.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 9 2008, 03:48 PM, said:

I don't agree with this. Given that 4H is (probably) a non-forcing slam try with 3 hearts and 4D agrees diamonds, you need some way to agree spades in a forcing manner, and 4C is the only way to do this. And you'd quite like some way to agree hearts in a forcing manner and you don't have that either...

It's a horrible auction. Move the order of the suits around and everything works much better.

Unfortunately, the rules of bridge doesn't allow us to say "this is a horrible auction", and move onto the next board. You still have to find a bid as responder over 3♠ with AQ10xx Kx Kxx xxx.

Since finding the right game takes priority over slam investigations, I'm prepared to bid 4♣ on both the "choice of games" type and the hands that are too strong to bid 4♥ or 4♠. What would you suggest instead?

[FrancesHinden]

Well, on this type of hand I would usually bid 3NT over 3S suggesting doubt about the final contract (i.e. suggesting I don't have much of a club stop). I would rather have some sort of club honour, mind you.

[gnasher]

Hmm. Do you think we've persuaded anyone that the right bid over 3♣ with a strong 2542 containing ♣Kx is 3♠?

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on Apr 9 2008, 05:51 PM, said:

Hmm. Do you think we've persuaded anyone that the right bid over 3♣ with a strong 2542 containing ♣Kx is 3♠?

No.

But given that the only person contributing to this thread that I'm ever likely to play with is you, that probably doesn't matter.

[benlessard]

Quote

I assume that you mean "3C multi inv"?

This sounds an interesting idea. What does responder do when he has a game force playable in several strains, but nothing obvious to show at the three level, such as AQ10xx Kx xxx Axx or AQ10xx Kx Axx xxx ?

Yes i meant 3C as multi inv. If the multi inv is under 2Nt then 2Nt can be used for unclear gameforce. GF.

1D---1S
2C---???

regular 4th suit GF
2H GF but need a rebid to clarify
2S to play
2Nt INV
3C INV
3D INV
3H INV for most of the players to GF with S & H its 2H followed by 3H
3S INV

Inversion
2H multi inv
2S to play
2Nt GF
3C GF
3D GF
3H GF
3S GF

1st of all since you are more likely to hit a GF hand then an invitationnal hand the inv style seems better.

2nd there is only a 2 space difference between 2H GF and 2nt GF wich is a small price to pay for unclear GF hands.

3 you can invite and finish in 2S not 3S

4 Unclear invitationnal hand are much better handled by a multi inv.

AJT98
Axx
Jxx
xx

In regular its a close call between 2Nt/3D and the game in S is easily possible.
By bidding a multi inv and pass or correct response.

2H----???

2S = i refuse a S inv
2Nt = i accept a S inv but refuse a Nt INV (a normal 2nt bid)
3C = i accept a S & NT inv but refuse a C inv (a normal 3C inv bid)

So if partner refuse a S inv you can try your luck in 2Nt or 3D.
If partner accept a S inv you have an easy 4S bid. If opener take a lot of space its doesnt bother you because hes maximum and accept all your game try, so no need for slam bidding and signing off in game should pose no problems.

The opposite isnt true when 2H is GF, the 3rd bid by opener will be all over the place denying responder the chance to established fit at a confortable level for slam/game exploration.

1D-----1S
2C-----2H (GF)
here if opener rebid 2S or 2Nt or 3C all is well. But if he rebid 3D/3H/3S/3nt its a different story.

The downside of multi inv will come in a later post.