[whereagles]

I remember a similar case once. It went like

1♥ . dbl 2♥ pass*
pass dbl

*~15 sec hesitation

I was the one hesitating. Opps called the director after the 2nd double. My pard, who had 14 hcp and a 4144, argued he knew I had some hcps regardless of hesitation because opps didn't make a move over 2♥. Them passing 2♥ marked me with about 6-7 hcp (I had 6) and his perfect shape was safe for competing, hence the 2nd dbl.

The Director agreed and allowed the dbl, after which I played some 3♣ making. Opps didn't appeal.

I think this situation is similar. Above I said I would pass, but now I'm convinced pass may not be a logical alternative.

[jtfanclub]

whereagles, on Apr 7 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

I remember a similar case once. It went like

1♥ . dbl 2♥ pass*
pass dbl

*~15 sec hesitation

Which is all well and good for an unlimited 1♥ opener.

---

It's very difficult to imagine the auction going

1♥ X 2♥ P
P

in Standard American.

It's normal in Precision. North could bid 1NT, but why? There's no real chance of game, and it'll probably play better in the 5-2.

Meanwhile, your partner with 5 hearts and a 3 count gets to choose between them playing 2♥ doubled and you playing in 3♦ doubled. Best of luck.

Balancing is far more dangerous when opener is limited.

[jdonn]

There is no doubt to me that by any definition I've heard of for a LA, passing is one.

[blackshoe]

Codo, on Apr 7 2008, 06:10 AM, said:

2. yes any bid/call that gives you a better score would be surely rolled back.
This time the BIT surely makes any bid look better then pass.

Um. The question is not whether a successful action would lead to a score adjustment. It's whether taking action here would be "taking advantage of UI". If you had significant extra values, you might (depending on your hand) make the case that pass is not a logical alternative, and then a second double would be allowed (assumed the TD agrees).

IOW, it is not the case that successful action after a BIT (or any other UI from partner, for that matter) will (or should) always result in a score adjustment.

This time, you clearly have to pass.

[gwnn]

yes

yes it is definitely a LA

[Cascade]

whereagles, on Apr 8 2008, 05:46 AM, said:

I remember a similar case once. It went like

1♥ . dbl 2♥ pass*
pass dbl

*~15 sec hesitation

I was the one hesitating. Opps called the director after the 2nd double. My pard, who had 14 hcp and a 4144, argued he knew I had some hcps regardless of hesitation because opps didn't make a move over 2♥. Them passing 2♥ marked me with about 6-7 hcp (I had 6) and his perfect shape was safe for competing, hence the 2nd dbl.

The Director agreed and allowed the dbl, after which I played some 3♣ making. Opps didn't appeal.

I think this situation is similar. Above I said I would pass, but now I'm convinced pass may not be a logical alternative.

I would pass 2♥ with some 14 counts maybe even stronger and bid 2♥ on some 9 counts - I have seen 2♥ suggested on 4-3-3-3 10 counts. Therefore I think the argument that partner is marked with 6-7 hcp is flawed.

[whereagles]

Cascade, on Apr 7 2008, 10:59 PM, said:

I would pass 2♥ with some 14 counts maybe even stronger and bid 2♥ on some 9 counts - I have seen 2♥ suggested on 4-3-3-3 10 counts. Therefore I think the argument that partner is marked with 6-7 hcp is flawed.

That's your interpretation. Most people support and try for a game aggressively.

Anyway, that's something for the appeals committee to decide, but they were not summoned.

[han]

I would double without the UI but I think that pass is a logical alternative.

Of course LA depends on the level of the player, maybe Justin is right that pass would not be a LA at the highest levels.

[the hog]

Yes there is UI. However I would still double again. Its what I would normally do. I don't really understand those who say they would change their normal action because of the hesitation. Isn't this actually responding to the hesitation? I am happy to let the director sort it out.

[the hog]

jtfanclub, on Apr 8 2008, 12:47 AM, said:

whereagles, on Apr 7 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

I remember a similar case once. It went like

1♥ . dbl 2♥ pass*
pass dbl

*~15 sec hesitation

Which is all well and good for an unlimited 1♥ opener.

---

It's very difficult to imagine the auction going

1♥ X 2♥ P
P

in Standard American.

It's normal in Precision. North could bid 1NT, but why? There's no real chance of game, and it'll probably play better in the 5-2.

Meanwhile, your partner with 5 hearts and a 3 count gets to choose between them playing 2♥ doubled and you playing in 3♦ doubled. Best of luck.

Balancing is far more dangerous when opener is limited.

2H on this hand is an absolute shocker. So is your other suggestion of 1NT, thoough that is not nearly so bad. Bid your natural 1S over the double for heaven's sake. Why do you strive to emasculate the auction?

[TimG]

The_Hog, on Apr 8 2008, 06:24 AM, said:

Yes there is UI. However I would still double again. Its what I would normally do. I don't really understand those who say they would change their normal action because of the hesitation. Isn't this actually responding to the hesitation? I am happy to let the director sort it out.

I used to think that way. But, I have been convinced that the Laws require me to make consideration at the table. L16A includes "may not choose from among logical alternative actions one that could demonstrably have been suggested over another by the extraneous information". And, L16A2 is titled "When Illegal Alternative Is Chosen" indicating that selecting such an alternative is actually "illegal" rather than the proper course of action, expecting it to be sorted out later.

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on Apr 8 2008, 06:24 AM, said:

Yes there is UI. However I would still double again. Its what I would normally do. I don't really understand those who say they would change their normal action because of the hesitation. Isn't this actually responding to the hesitation? I am happy to let the director sort it out.

Yes it is. The law is clear, you can't choose from among LAs one that was suggested by the hesitation. There is (intentionally) absolutely no mention of what 'you' would have done without a hesitation, and it's illegal to take an action just because you know you would have taken it anyway.

There is a handbook the ACBL puts out to help club directors called Duplicate Decisions that contradicts what I just said, and pretty much tells players to ignore the hesitation. This advice is illegal and is there IMO since these issues are beyond so many club players, so they leave it to the club director to sort out. However there is no doubt about what the law is and what you can legally do.

[jtfanclub]

The most obvious one is that our 1♥ opener denies 4 spades, but let's assume it didn't.

1♥ X 1♠ shows a invitational hand or better. If you don't play it that way across a limited opener you're going to get beaten up an robbed on a regular basis. It is certainly germane to this conversation, though, because after

1♥ X 1♠ 4♣

how is your partner supposed to know what to do with a typical hand with 4 spades?

This hand is not invitational. It also doesn't have the spade length for a WJS. I don't intend to fart around looking for a fit when I've got an honor doubleton across partner's 5+. 5-2 is good enough for the 2 level, and it's good enough for me. I'm not going to the 3 level no matter how many spades partner has, so why exactly should I be passing information to my opponents?

[awm]

1♥-X-1♠ shows invitational values? So what do you bid with ♠KQxxx ♥- ♦Jxxx ♣xxxx? Pass? Doesn't it rate to go 1♥-X-Pass-Pass? Is opener going to run with some balanced hand? But perhaps you meant only that it shows invitational values if you have heart tolerance?

And while you may not bid 3♥ on doubleton, partner might. Say the auction goes 1♥-X-2♥-2♠. You are probably perfectly happy to defend 2♠ given that you have no real fit for partner and four card spades. But partner looking at a singleton spade, figures you for three trumps and less defense. Isn't it possible he bids here when bidding is wrong?

What if partner has a game try hand? Are you going to reject on your eleven count single raise? And if you accept, are you sure you can avoid the 5-2 heart fit at the game level?

As to 1♥-X-1♠-4♣, it is very easy. If partner has any normal opener he passes. If responder has invitational or better values and a fairly flat hand he doubles, and opener bids 4♠ with a fit. If responder has garbage we defend 4♣. If both opener and responder are fairly flat with game or near game values and no major suit fit, we defend 4♣X.

I think a lot of people miss the fact that most of the hands that open 1M in standard also open 1M in a limited opening system, that the 11-15 range includes plenty of hands that might make game opposite a single raise, and that just because opener has limited points doesn't mean he can't have a shapely hand that would want to bid again in a competitive auction (in fact bidding again in a competitive auction is safer because it always shows shape and not points).

[jtfanclub]

awm, on Apr 8 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

Quote

1♥-X-1♠ shows invitational values? So what do you bid with ♠KQxxx ♥- ♦Jxxx ♣xxxx? Pass? Doesn't it rate to go 1♥-X-Pass-Pass? Is opener going to run with some balanced hand? But perhaps you meant only that it shows invitational values if you have heart tolerance?

Are you arguing that with a 1 spade opener and the majors reversed that you'd bid 2♥? And if not, how worried about it can you really be? If I end up playing in 1♥X, I do the same thing you do if you end up playing in 1♠X- shrug, and move on.

Quote

But partner looking at a singleton spade, figures you for three trumps and less defense. Isn't it possible he bids here when bidding is wrong?

Um, sure. Anything's possible. But what should happen is that partner passes with a balanced hand and bids with a shapely hand. I can handle that.

Quote

What if partner has a game try hand? Are you going to reject on your eleven count single raise? And if you accept, are you sure you can avoid the 5-2 heart fit at the game level?

The hand was

♠ KJxx
♥ Qx
♦ QTxx
♣ Jxx

I will sometimes devalue a 10 count to the point where I don't want to be in game across a balanced 15 after an X. I don't think I've ever done it for an 11.

Quote

I think a lot of people miss the fact that most of the hands that open 1M in standard also open 1M in a limited opening system, that the 11-15 range includes plenty of hands that might make game opposite a single raise, and that just because opener has limited points doesn't mean he can't have a shapely hand that would want to bid again in a competitive auction (in fact bidding again in a competitive auction is safer because it always shows shape and not points).

If partner invites with a shapely hand, he will have either a second suit or six hearts- there is no such thing as a shapely 5332. At which point I'll place the contract. If the auction went...

1♥ X 2♥ P
3♣ P 3NT P
4♥

Either partner has six hearts or I'll explain to him after the board how raises work in competition. This is all by agreement, my honor doubleton isn't going to come as a shock to him.

Quote

As to 1♥-X-1♠-4♣, it is very easy. If partner has any normal opener he passes. If responder has invitational or better values and a fairly flat hand he doubles, and opener bids 4♠ with a fit. If responder has garbage we defend 4♣. If both opener and responder are fairly flat with game or near game values and no major suit fit, we defend 4♣X.

Right, it's very easy. If responder has a defensive hand, he doubles, and opener leaves it in. If responder has an offensive hand, he doubles, and opener takes it out to 4♠. If responder has a mixed hand, he doubles, and opener makes his best bid.

It is a *great* one for hesitations, though. You have some pile 1♥ opener with 4 spades, like

♠ Qxxx
♥ AKxxx
♦ xx
♣ Kx

Bidding goes
1♥ X 1♠ 4♣
-P- P -X- -P-

Now what? Wanna play 4♠? How about 4♣X? How about if the X was lightning quick? What about if it took 30 seconds?

[oldman5757]

Yes, I'd double the 2nd time, altho it could very easily be wrong, since you have no extra values for it. Not vul, however, seems right to compete for the partial.

I don't know any director anywhere who, after about 2 seconds of deliberation, would allow you to do anything other than pass after the hesitation. What you would have done without the hesitation is irrelevant; you must take the hesitation into account. Since the hesitation suggests action, and since pass is a logical alternative, you must choose it.

[skjaeran]

Pass is surely a LA as defined by WBF. It MIGHT not be at the highest level under the ACBL definition, though I doubt that. I'd double without the BIT and pass with it.

[blackshoe]

jtfanclub, on Apr 8 2008, 12:53 PM, said:

♠ Qxxx
♥ AKxxx
♦ xx
♣ Kx

Bidding goes
1♥ X 1♠ 4♣
-P- P -X- -P-

Now what? Wanna play 4♠? How about 4♣X? How about if the X was lightning quick? What about if it took 30 seconds?

It can't have been lightning quick. After all, you paused for the appropriate time before calling over the 4♣ jump bid, right?

[awm]

blackshoe, on Apr 9 2008, 05:14 PM, said:

It can't have been lightning quick. After all, you paused for the appropriate time before calling over the 4♣ jump bid, right?

Indeed, I would be more worried about:

1♥ - X - 2♥*

*Slow 2♥ = honor-doubleton; fast 2♥ = three-card support

Or maybe:

1♥ - X - 2♥ - 2♠
Pass*

*Fast pass = let's defend; slow pass = I want to compete to 3♥ if you have three pieces

Than I would about the auction:

1♥ - X - 1♠ - 4♣
Pass* - Pass - X**

* Required to take ten seconds because of the skip bid.
** If partner can't make this call in tempo after my required ten second think over 4♣ then shame on him!