[the hog]

jdonn, on Apr 1 2008, 09:39 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2008, 08:15 PM, said:

roflmao. This is the best thread on these forums in years. I can't believe some posters are so attached to their mobile phones that it seems to require surgeryto separate them from their toys. Why can't you check them in at the door?

"Check them in at the door" would be a stupendous idea if they set up a way to do so. 300 people leaving their cell phones at the loosely-guarded-at-best director's table and then having everyone try to get them at the same time as the session ends does not qualify.

Your post is twice as much a roflmao to anyone who has a cell phone as theirs are to you. Pejoratively calling them 'toys' just shows how completely irrelevant your view of the issue is.

Srry Josh, but you are talking through an orifice, and its not in your head. I have been on call 24/7 looking after IT systems, some of which controlled the entire shipping coming into Port Melbourne.

However posters getting so emotional at having their social lives disrupted due to having their mobile phone use restricted is extremely funny. What would you guys have done 10 years ago?

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on Mar 31 2008, 10:44 PM, said:

However posters getting so emotional at having their social lives disrupted due to having their mobile phone use restricted is extremely funny. What would you guys have done 10 years ago?

Spoken like a true old fart. How would you have gone to the grocery store 100 years ago?

It's not just for the convenience of using the phone, by the way. It is VERY uncomfortable to have your cell phone in the hands of someone you don't know or trust. They contain private information. They are the only phone and only phone number I have. If it went missing there would be no easy way to resolve the situation during the middle of the trip away from home. So when people like you have nothing better to do than come make sarcastic insults for a cheap laugh when you haven't even tried to make a point, it's pathetic.

[benlessard]

Like it or not cellphones have become an important part of our lives. For some of them its needed for business, security etc. I think the amount of people that need will need their cellphones for important reasons is much higher then the amount of people that will cheat using a cell.

I think that most personnal reasons for answering a phone call in the middle of a tournament are probably more important then being cheated or not in a bridge event.

One thing im sure is that the directors here wont give a damn if you carry your cell and long as they dont ear it.

PS i dont own a cell and dont want to.

[the hog]

"How would you have gone to the grocery store 100 years ago?"

Same way I do now - walk!

[sceptic]

joshs, on Mar 31 2008, 11:34 PM, said:

sceptic, on Mar 31 2008, 05:27 PM, said:

Quote

If I missed the last bus to my dad's, and didn't have a cell phone, I would be in trouble, and it was touch and go to make the bus after the session ended.

can wait until someone invents legs

Are you an idiot??? My dad lives about 30 miles away. I also have to cross a river.

in answer to you question, yes I can be some times, but my point is, what is the big deal about cellphones, and if you truely think I am an idiot great I wont try and change your opinion of me. for what it is worth my kids agre with you, that how can they be expected to get home if they miss the last bus, it is always phone mum and dad, they will collect me, no matter what the inconvinience

When younger, I missed the last train back from london on more than one occasion, no cell phones in them days, about 50+ miles to my house, 45 by train then another 8 to my house, I lived in the country a small village at the time, I improvised, hitched home if the weather was that bad, dossed down at the train station or just got on with it. I was man enough to sort out my own problems in my younger days, something I think the younger generation seem unable or unwilling to comprehend

I have spent 6 months aged 17 walking around europe with no cell phone and I had some extremely stressful situations to contend with, I wonder now, how I managed with no cell phone, life is tough these days

I just can not imagine, how not having a cell phone would turn me in to a big cissy that could not cope with life if I never had communication with anyone else on the planet at some unearthly hour of the morning stranded in some strange place, I would do what I always have done, I would jst get on with it and solve my own problem(this is a general observation, not aimed at anyone even by proxy)

Life is about experiences take the rough with the smooth, not having a cell phone is not the end of the world and being deprived of it for a weekend, may actually bring out character in people that they never knew they had.

I have 2 cell phones and I am usually polite enough to go out side to use them if I can, I would also respect a decision to leave them in the safe in the hotel room or with someone that will look after them, I can do this because I plan what I am going to do and because I have no friends at all, it is quite easy, as for work, well we are all entited to time off from that. in fact if I tell someone I am away for the weekend they usually respect my privacy, as for I MUST be contactable 24/7.

I very much doubt many of you are more in demand than surgeons that even have days off.

[sceptic]

Quote

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but public telephone booths have mostly disappeared. What would superman do....

we used to have pay phones all over the place and I never woke my mum or dad up when I got stuck, nor did I rely on them to wipe my backside, I made my own travel arrangements

[hrothgar]

sceptic, on Apr 1 2008, 11:24 AM, said:

I have spent 6 months aged 17 walking around europe with no cell phone and I had some extremely stressful situations to contend with, I wonder now, how I managed with no cell phone, life is tough these days

I just can not imagine, how not having a cell phone would turn me in to a big cissy that could not cope with life

Just because you're too stupid to understand something doesn't mean that its not true...
This is especially true in your case.

No one here is saying that having a cell phone is a life and death imperative. However, I think that its clear that many people find cell phones to be an important convenience. At the margin, this might even mean the difference between someone attending an event and someone skipping one.

I'll note once again: I don't own a cell phone. I find them more trouble than they are worth. However, I recognize that many folks feel quite differently.

[sceptic]

hrothgar, on Apr 1 2008, 09:37 AM, said:

sceptic, on Apr 1 2008, 11:24 AM, said:

I have spent 6 months aged 17 walking around europe with no cell phone and I had some extremely stressful situations to contend with, I wonder now, how I managed with no cell phone, life is tough these days

I just can not imagine, how not having a cell phone would turn me in to a big cissy that could not cope with life

Just because you're too stupid to understand something doesn't mean that its not true...
This is especially true in your case.

understand what?

People being asked to not go into a bridge tournament and leaving a cellphone behind, because it interferes with someones social life

being asked to not go into a bridge tournament and leaving a cellphone behind, because an organisation that you appear to have nothing but contempt for has asked you to do something that "MAY" help them with an issue they have, even if it is not a cure all solution, at least they are attempting to tackle issues as best they can, under what I would imagine are no win scenarios

or perhaps you have another reason for insulting me (good job I am thick skinned)

Why try and buck the system, help them out and comply with the rules, if it does not work, then perhaps you could approach the oraganisation and suggest that, this rule is not working and revoke it

I am sure when the rule comes in, surgeons and people that have serious reason to be contacted (ie a matter of life and death) may be able to get an exemption

it appears to me, that some people just dont lke being asked to do something sensible, like leaving a very annoying toy away from somewhere people wish to do something that requires concentration and play in a fair environment (or as fair as they possibly can make it.

The contempt some of you show for the organisation, that is trying to do someting positive is incredible

[sceptic]

Quote

I think that its clear that many people find cell phones to be an important convenience.

Quote

Can't disagree with you there

At the margin, this might even mean the difference between someone attending an event and someone skipping one.

and your point is?

that is the individuals perogative to choose to attend, or alternatively, why not get on board the management structure of the organisation you seem to have so much contempt for and change things, instead of bad mouthing almost everything they try and do, I am sure they would listen to you, but I doubt you would extend the same courtesy to them.

[hrothgar]

sceptic, on Apr 1 2008, 02:28 PM, said:

why not get on board the management structure of the organisation you seem to have so much contempt for and change things, instead of bad mouthing almost everything they try and do, I am sure they would listen to you, but I doubt you would extend the same courtesy to them.

For the record:

1. I brought the potential to use shoe phones and the like as a mechanism for cheating to the attention of the ACBL years back. If you want, I can even point you to some discussions on this forums a couple years back where Jan Martel and I were discussing this topic.

2. When this latest round of idiocy started up I was the first one to suggest that the ACBL start focusing on practical solutions like introducing dealing machines

3. I already started conducting some surveys on other bridge mailing listed trying to evaluate whether or not their would be any support for a "Cell Phone Check" at Boston Nationals. My comments in this area led TimG to contact Roy Green (District 25 President and ex CEO of the ACBL about implementing such a system. I'm following up with a recommendation that District 25 consider conducting survey's in Vegas

4. I had a letter to the editor on this topic accepted by the Bridge World yesterday...

As for your suggestion that I try to get onto the management structure of the ACBL: Ain't going to happen, for any number of reasons.

I readily admit, I bad mouth a lot of the stuff that comes out of the ACBL. Then again, from my perspective, the ACBL is responsible for a hell of a lot of crap.

I've held some reasonably senior positions at a number of companies. If anyone in my management chain was responsible for the never ending cascade of ***** that oozes out of Memphis they'd be out on their ass so fast it would make their head spin.

[Codo]

finally17, on Apr 1 2008, 08:55 AM, said:

I feel the need to add that I'm sickened by all the comments about whiny babies and children. If the younger people in this crowd were to start complaining about all the elderly that played bridge, both the playing against them and the logistics of having them in the event, you all would bitch-slap us with accusations of ageism so fast our heads would spin.

But we make perfectly valid points about why we want to be able to carry cell phones and rather than bothering to recognize their validity you start using these derogatory terms.

Between all these whinning kids, this had been the nicest gem.

We made valid points and they start to discuss degoratory terms.

If you are able to read, be so kind and read what had been written in this thread.

The pro mobile group used words like idiots, talked about any absurd reason why they truely need a mobile in the playing area.
And they made some valid points.

The anti mobile fraction did exactly the same.

But to claim that we did so good and they did not is simply narrowminded.

Please read what f.e. TimG wrote about mobiles. You may not share his views, but they are far away from discussing degoratory terms and making non valid points.

Read waht Trinidad or JanM wrote about real life expierence with a mobile phone ban. But no this is not valid in your eyes.

The only thing which is valid in your eyes are your fears.

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Apr 1 2008, 07:22 AM, said:

If anyone in my management chain was responsible for the never ending cascade of ***** that oozes out of Memphis they'd be out on their ass so fast it would make their head spin.

It would be a good idea to remember that ACBL's Memphis management is a rather different body than the ACBL BoD.

[h2osmom]

There is another problem about the mobile phone ban that has not been addressed, and I think it's serious. According to the poll here on BBO, and conversations I have had with other bridge acquaintances, many people fully intend to ignore the ban and carry a cell phone regardless of the rule. Once people don't accept a rule, and routinely ignore it, respect for the authority making the rule decreases. ACBL exists for the members, the majority of whom will not be playing day 3 of the Vanderbilt. Without the goodwill of the rank and file members, there could exist no Vanderbilt or Spingold. ACBL needs to poll members before making a change that will inconvenience a large percentage of its members and verify that there is support for such a change prior to implementation. This rule certainly does not seem to have support of the people who are the members of ACBL.

[jdonn]

Codo, on Apr 1 2008, 07:23 AM, said:

finally17, on Apr 1 2008, 08:55 AM, said:

I feel the need to add that I'm sickened by all the comments about whiny babies and children.  If the younger people in this crowd were to start complaining about all the elderly that played bridge, both the playing against them and the logistics of having them in the event, you all would bitch-slap us with accusations of ageism so fast our heads would spin.

But we make perfectly valid points about why we want to be able to carry cell phones and rather than bothering to recognize their validity you start using these derogatory terms.

Between all these whinning kids, this had been the nicest gem.

And already no one is going to care about the rest of your post, as you just prove your opponents right before you even start....

[awm]

I agree with Finally17 that there is a lot of ageism in this thread.

There are basically two issues that need to be addressed:

(1) Will banning cell phones reduce cheating? How substantially so?

(2) Will banning cell phones inconvenience players? How substantially so?

I think that on the first issue, a number of good points have been made on both sides. People have indicated how easy it is to cheat with a phone, how important it is to make it harder to cheat or at least make it appear that it's hard to cheat, and how seriously ACBL takes its NABC+ events. The counterpoint has been made that there are many other ways to cheat which a cell phone ban will not address, that approaches like simultaneous play of boards or having monitors to watch for cheating will be much more effective to reduce cheating than a cell phone ban, that none of the high profile cheating scandals in recent years (of which there have been many) have involved phones, and that restricting a relatively complicated and difficult way to cheat while leaving the door wide open to other easier methods of cheating will not improve security one iota.

On the second issue, I think a lot of ageism has materialized. The (mostly young) people who want their cell phones have given long lists of reasons that the phone is useful and enhances their enjoyment of nationals. They have indicated that in some cases they could not or would not even attend nationals because of this ban or that they would ignore the ban and take their chances with penalties because the phone is so essential. They have also argued that the logistics of a cell phone ban (where does the phone go, who collects it, how does one get it back, what if it is lost/stolen) will be hard to implement. The counterpoint from the (mostly older) people who don't agree with the importance of carrying a mobile phone has mostly been to call the people with phones whiny babies and to suggest that "we didn't need phones back in the day so you don't need them now." Well, back in the day we didn't need air conditioning or hearing aids or heart defibrillators but I don't hear anyone suggesting that we ban those in the playing site of bridge tournaments. The fact is that some items of modern technology are very handy and improve people's ability to travel, organize themselves, and enjoy their trip. "Back in the day" young people had an awful lot of trouble playing serious bridge and holding down a non-bridge job at the same time (read any of the bridge pros' biographies to see this is true). "Back in the day" people with young kids didn't really play a lot of bridge. Cell phones help make those things possible, since you can check in at work occasionally or make sure your kids are okay. "Back in the day" these young folks would've just stayed home and not bothered with nationals... maybe that is what the older population wants?

[awm]

As another point... what is the most significant anti-cheating improvement at bridge tournaments in the last fifty years?

My guess: screens.

If the integrity of the event is not important enough to put screens at the table then what business do we have banning cell phones?

There are no screens in the LM pairs (even day three) or the Blue Ribbon pairs. These are ACBL's premier pairs events, definitely "NABC+" rated.

[awm]

Anyways here's my take on the ban. I'll be happy to follow the cell phone ban in any event where ACBL makes sure that:

(1) There are screens at every table.
(2) The boards are played in the same order, basically simultaneously, at every table.
(3) No one (player or kibitzer) is allowed to leave the table during the play of a hand.

I think that these three things are very simple, standard approaches to preventing cheating. They address problems which have arisen numerous times. If ACBL refuses to implement these things, I have to believe that they are not seriously trying to stop cheating from occurring, and that the cell phone ban is primarily an attempt to inconvenience younger players and not a legitimate attempt to combat unethical players. I will continue to ignore the cell phone ban until it becomes part of a serious anti-cheating effort.

I'll note that presently, the above conditions do not apply to any ACBL event. Only the late rounds of the Spingold/Vanderbilt enforce even the first two, and many "nationally rated" events such as the last day of the three-day life master pairs do not enforce any of the three.

[benlessard]

Quote

If the integrity of the event is not important enough to put screens at the table then what business do we have banning cell phones?

Great argument.

[TimG]

awm, on Apr 1 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

(3) No one (player or kibitzer) is allowed to leave the table during the play of a hand.

Kibitzers ought to be allowed to enter the playing area only between rounds/segments; once a round/segment starts, the playing area ought to be closed. A kibitzer could leave the room at any time, but would not be able to re-enter until the next between-round/segment break. Players should remain in the playing room until they have completed the current round/segment. In this way, players could not communicate to their teammates regarding hand they are about to play. (Yes, I realize signals could be transmitted via vibrating cellphones or custom hi-tech devices, but the number of boards for which useful information could be passed would be significantly reduced. And, the effort needed to cheat in this manner would be significantly increased over current conditions.)

I have long thought that there ought to be a directing presence in each playing area. Directors should not be stationed in hallways or sitting behind tables at the edge of a playing area. There ought to be a director for each 2-3 sections that is actually walking the floor, observing the players, making sure things run smoothly, etc. Not only would this obviate the very annoying need to leave the playing area to call a director, but directors would have a much better feel for the happenings in the sections they are patrolling. It would be easier for them to monitor slow play situations, make quick rulings (including automatic penalties when a cell phone rings), keep the game moving in an orderly fashion and recognize less savory behavior.

Quote

If ACBL refuses to implement these things, I have to believe that they are not seriously trying to stop cheating from occurring, and that the cell phone ban is primarily an attempt to inconvenience younger players and not a legitimate attempt to combat unethical players.

Think what you want, but I seriously doubt any board member ever thought along the lines of: "hey, this rule will seriously inconvenience the young folks, we ought to pass it just to annoy them."

[sceptic]

If ACBL refuses to implement these things, I have to believe that they are not seriously trying to stop cheating from occurring, and that the cell phone ban is primarily an attempt to inconvenience younger players and not a legitimate attempt to combat unethical players.

up until this point I had taken this as a serious post, now I realise what the ACBL is up against, they will never be able to do the right thing, unless every table is played in a locked room with full cctv of each player and an independant TD judicating every call, not forgetting the screens, heart monitors and electronic communications between the four players. to eleiminate and apparent body signals

They could possibly even have chaperones to listen in on the conversations the players have in between sessions..............I am amazed at the attitude here

c'mon boys and girls, it is only a bloody game, it is not even a sport

No wonder it is a dying game