[skjaeran]

Looking at both hands I'd prefer to play 4♠ here. But I'm pretty sure we'd get to 4♥ after a 1♥ opening by south.

[whereagles]

foo, on Mar 18 2008, 04:56 PM, said:

Does anyone want to be in slam on these cards?

Depends. I don't. But the point is how to evaluate the combined strength.

[jdonn]

I see nothing wrong with opening the south hand. All the honors are in the long suits. It's a better hand than JT QJxxx KJxx Kx or something. Also although the jack is doubleton it has the ten with it. That can come in very handy opposite lots of holdings, such as A9xx.

There is no doubt passing would lead to a simpler auction, but there is no reason to get beyond 4♥ anyway, and even if you did slam is far from hopeless.

[brianshark]

1♥ - 1♠
2♦ - 3♣
3♥ - 4♥
That would be mine.

[mikeh]

brianshark, on Mar 18 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

1♥ - 1♠
2♦ - 3♣
3♥ - 4♥
That would be mine.

I'm sure it would be

Frankly, anytime I see someone post a sequence like this, it makes me laugh. North has 17 real, 7 controls, A10x of trump that he hasn't disclosed, a ruffing value and a good 5 card side suit... and he makes NO slam move??????

Well, it helps to know that partner holds J10 KQJxx KJxx xx doesn't it?

If one wants to post a magic auction that happens to work on the actual hands, after knowing the actual hands, at least try to explain why it is that one made the choices set out. Why, for example, did North GIVE UP on slam after the 3♥ rebid????

And don't tell us that '3♣ showed a slam try', because that would be nonsense. 3♣ showed a game force with uncertainty about one or both of denomination or level. 4♥ says that, in light of the 3♥ call, he wants to play 4♥. It is NOT a slam try.... because it doesn't show 3+ hearts... the 3♥ call showed either 6 or a good 5 card suit and, presumably, an unwillingness to bid 3N.

[foo]

jdonn, on Mar 18 2008, 12:45 PM, said:

I see nothing wrong with opening the south hand. All the honors are in the long suits. It's a better hand than
JT QJxxx KJxx Kx or something.

Also although the jack is doubleton it has the ten with it. That can come in very handy opposite lots of holdings, such as A9xx.

There is no doubt passing would lead to a simpler auction, but there is no reason to get beyond 4♥ anyway, and even if you did slam is far from hopeless.

JT QJxxx KJxx Kx

Is not a mainstream opener either. It is not even a Rule of 20 Opener. One of Bergen's _points schmoints_ books (IIRC #2) will even tell you not count JT as a HCP so that such hands evaluate to 19, not 20, using the Rule of 20.

Such hands are simply not 1st or 2nd chair openings playing any middle of the road or mainstream style.

I also agree with mikeh that any R holding ♠AK98x ♥ATx ♦xx ♣AQx after CHO opens is going to get real excited. You may get lucky and avoid slam, but I suspect you are going to have a very hard time shutting R up before We are at the 5 level. 5♥ on the OP board is no more than 50%...

On the OP board slam is no better than 25%. That's "hopeless" in my book if your goal is to play winning Bridge.

[Echognome]

Bid it with Jason after a 1♥ opening (in a strong club, relay context).

Pretty easily stayed out of slam and got to 4♥, but the opening was obviously an expected one given the limited nature. After shape was known the only real question was whether to ask for controls (and not min/max) or to ask if p was min/max. The choice made when given the problem was to ask min/max and signoff in game opposite a min.

[han]

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This is the SAYC and 2/1 forum, go away you devil!

[Echognome]

han, on Mar 18 2008, 04:54 PM, said:

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This is the SAYC and 2/1 forum, go away you devil!

D'oh!
D'oh!
D'oh!
D'oh!
D'oh!

Mea culpa....

[brianshark]

Well whatever. I didn't read any of the thread before I posted nor did I analyse the deal, nor know what the thread was all about, I just bid the hands quickly in my head and then clicked reply.

I guess that's because I believe bidding a new suit, then 4th suit forcing then game in hearts stronger than new suit then game in hearts. Maybe had I given it more thought south would still have been worth another try. Maybe I am wrong in my assumption that the above sequence shows south's extras already. Maybe another day north has a better hand but stays quiet and I've missed slam. Maybe in hindsight, I don't think my sequence was best.

But I just bid the hand and posted my sequence. So whatever you think.

[Winstonm]

P-1S
2H-4H

Amazing how much easier it gets when you pass the crap hand.

[Cascade]

mikeh, on Mar 19 2008, 11:15 AM, said:

... the 3♥ call showed either 6 or a good 5 card suit and, presumably, an unwillingness to bid 3N.

In some player's methods it shows nothing more than unwillingness to play in 3NT and nothing else to say. The heart suit need not be that great. But it is unlikely to be that horrible given the lack of stopper and lack or support for partner.

[mikeh]

Cascade, on Mar 18 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 19 2008, 11:15 AM, said:

... the 3♥ call showed either 6 or a good 5 card suit and, presumably, an unwillingness to bid 3N.

In some player's methods it shows nothing more than unwillingness to play in 3NT and nothing else to say. The heart suit need not be that great. But it is unlikely to be that horrible given the lack of stopper and lack or support for partner.

I was paraphrasing whereagles' explanation, not my own usage.. I'd rebid 3♦ over 3♣ and now 3♥ IS a slam try by responder, who can and probably should respect 4♥ by opener

[Codo]

I join the chorus that this is no opener in 2/1, so there it is around the lines of pass 1♠ 2 ♥ 4 ♥.

But I would surely open it in sayc.

There the auction will be:

1♥ 1 ♠
2 ♦ 3♣
3 ♥ 4 NT
5 ♦ 5 ♥ ap

Up to 3 ♣ this is easy and should be bidden from most sane sayc players.
After 3♥ it gets muddy. IN SEF 4 ♥ here shows slam interest. But funnily most partners tend to forget this. So I would bid a simple RCKB for Hearts and close the case in 5 Heart when pd shows 1 or 4 and obviously opened some crap.

If you can envision that bidding 1 Spade will make it too difficult to search for slam, you may try 1♥ 2 NT. Yes this should show 4 Hearts, but at least it sets trump and makes the further bidding quite easy. And with such a control rich hand, good trumps and a good side suit, the 4. trump may be of lesser value anyway.

[Cascade]

mikeh, on Mar 19 2008, 04:48 PM, said:

Cascade, on Mar 18 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 19 2008, 11:15 AM, said:

... the 3♥ call showed either 6 or a good 5 card suit and, presumably, an unwillingness to bid 3N.

In some player's methods it shows nothing more than unwillingness to play in 3NT and nothing else to say. The heart suit need not be that great. But it is unlikely to be that horrible given the lack of stopper and lack or support for partner.

I was paraphrasing whereagles' explanation, not my own usage.. I'd rebid 3♦ over 3♣ and now 3♥ IS a slam try by responder, who can and probably should respect 4♥ by opener

I too play that we bid 3♦ when we have no other good bid.

We then bid 3♥ as a slam try.

There is a problem on some hands where responder was just trying to find the best game with say 5=2=3=3 without a stopper in the 4th suit. On these hands responder may also have no clear action when opener didn't show something extra in response to 4th suit. In these cases we might have to make an uncomfortable choice.

[whereagles]

Codo, on Mar 19 2008, 07:36 AM, said:

But I would surely open it in sayc. There the auction will be:

1♥ 1 ♠
2 ♦ 3♣
3 ♥ 4 NT
5 ♦ 5 ♥ ap

Up to 3 ♣ this is easy and should be bidden from most sane sayc players.
After 3♥ it gets muddy. IN SEF 4 ♥ here shows slam interest. But funnily most partners tend to forget this.

I tend to agree that 4♥ is a slam try. But what if responder holds, say,

AKxxx
Ax
Qxx
xxx

Knowing opener has 6 hearts or 5 with no club stop, wouldn't this hand prefer the eventual 5-2 fit to 3NT? You can't have 4♥ showing a slam try and a hand like this. How does SEF sort this out?