[jdonn]

You open 1NT

1NT (3♣) DBL (P)
3♦ (P) 3♠ (P)

What sort of hand has partner shown?

Edit: Forgot to mention DBL agreed as "negative"

[the hog]

3S would have been a gf., so 3S after the double should be an invitational hand with 5 good or 6 cards in S.

[han]

I haven't discussed this auction but I would play it as forcing. I don't think that opener can pass below game after the negative double at the 3-level.

Two hands for responder make sense to me here, one is a hand with 5 spades and 4 hearts, the other is a balanced hand without club stopper and a strong 4-card spade suit. I would assume the former at the table.

Oh wanted to add, invitational hands with 6 spades bid 4S, they don't double.

[andy_h]

Without any agreements, I'd say invitational hand with 5 spades and possibly 4 hearts. Partner probably won't whip out this auction on us and intend it as forcing if we had 3S direct as forcing.

[Cascade]

We play this as game force with only five spades and a jump to 3♠ as six spades slammish.

I am sure this is not standard though.

We give up on inviting in competition most of the time.

[FrancesHinden]

Funny, I would just assume it is game forcing with 4 spades. I give up on invitations after the 3C overcall and bid 3S with five spades.

I would expect responder to have something like

KQxx
Kxx
Axx
xxx

Certainly,

1NT (3C) x (P)
3D (P) 3H

can be 4-4-3-2, and might have 4-card diamond support.

But all this is slightly predicated on opener's actions: holding a 4-card major and 4 diamonds would you bid diamonds or the major over partner's double?

Are you allowed to open 1NT with 5 diamodns and a 4-card major? If so, would you bid diamonds or the major over the double?

[benlessard]

Modern treatment is to play that you are forcing up to 3Nt/4D. So either 4 good S and no club stopper or 5 bad spades + 4H + at least half a stopper ( a hand that you dont want to bid 3S followed by 4H)

[helene_t]

Maybe this is pedantic, but the term "negative" means that X followed by 3♠ is weaker than 3♠ directly, doesn't it? I would prefer to call it "GF t/o" if that is what it means.

Maybe if the sort of Lebensohl we play is that a direct 3♠ over 2♣ would promise a stopper while 2N followed by 3♠ would deny, we could play the same here. Dbl followed by 3♠ shows 5 (or maybe just 4?) spades and denies a stopper.

[han]

Yes pedantic, and I think also poorly pedantic because "negative" in negative double refers to the inability to make another call, not to the weakness of the hand.

In my first pass I said "jump to 4S" while I should have said "jump to 4H transfer".

By the way, I remember Fred posting something over 2NT-(3C) that made a lot of sense, would it work just as well over 1NT-(3C)?

[whereagles]

There's a case for it showing 4 hearts + 5 spades, no? In that case it must be forcing.

[gwnn]

I'd definitely play partner for 5-4 in the majors. Probably 6-4 would just bid 4S.

[hotShot]

Why didn't P bid 3♠?
I expect him to have a 2nd suit and he is to weak to bid both of them. At playable level. Most likely he is 5(4)♠, 4♥, 2♦ and 2♣.
Depending on your NT range he is just invitational in strength.

[helene_t]

han, on Mar 17 2008, 06:19 PM, said:

Yes pedantic, and I think also poorly pedantic because "negative" in negative double refers to the inability to make another call, not to the weakness of the hand.

As far as I can tell from various online resources, the term "negative" refers to the implied shortness in opps' suit (the term referred to t/o doubles of an opening bid rather than an overcall). For example, WikiPedia writes:

Quote

The term negative double was initially employed to distinguish it from the penalty, or business, or positive double, and signified a double for take-out. Sometime around 1930, the term informatory double replaced negative double, and that term later gave way to take-out double as it is used at present. As terminology changed, the original term "negative" double fell into disuse.

I thought it was the same "negative" as in "negative freebid", ie you show the weak hand with a long major either by a negative freebid or a negative double. Learned something new.

[pclayton]

Is partner old school? When I learned the game 25 years ago, 3♠ over 3♣ was NF and this is how you show a GF hand with spades.

Now, I think this sequence would indicate 5♠ / 4♥.

[jdonn]

pclayton, on Mar 19 2008, 09:56 AM, said:

Is partner old school? When I learned the game 25 years ago, 3♠ over 3♣ was NF and this is how you show a GF hand with spades.

Now, I think this sequence would indicate 5♠ / 4♥.

Partner is me. So not really!

[han]

Thanks Helene, I didn't knwo that either. Are you going to tell us the story Josh?

[jdonn]

I thought partner should auto pass on what he had, I had....very little. He bid 3NT with a 2353 15.

[Apollo81]

I'd assume responder had an invitational or a bit worse hand with 5+♠. He was trying to compete over 3♣ and didn't mind defending doubled, so he has some values and there are some hands opener can have that would raise.

[inquiry]

if 3♠ is forcing, why didn't anyone discuss the possibility of smolen like with 5♥ and 4♠?

Anyway, spades and hearts, forcing i would think.