[bobbywjch]

in the auction
2♣-2♦
2♥-2♥

my mentor told me 2♥is artificial and waiting while if 2NT(in place of 2♥) it would show ♠5

Does anyone play this? my mentor told me that the 3rd new suit in natural bidding is usually artificial. eg 1♥-1♥-3♣!

if anyone knows this, could you explain why it is devised this way?

[hrothgar]

Comment 1:

Lets assume that your auctions starts as follows

2♣ - 2♦

Where 2♣ is strong artificial and forcing and 2♦ is waiting (2♦ typically denies some other game forcing hands)

Many good pairs play a convention called "Kokish". A Kokish 2♥ bid forces partner to bid 2♠ after which the 2♣ opener will make a descriptive rebid.

The idea behind Kokish is that it allows the 2♣ much more flexibility in the auction. For example, the auction

2♣ - 2♦
2N

can show one hand type

2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠
2N

shows a very different hand type

Comment 2:

I feel quite strongly that its a mistake to present a random collection of bidding sequences without explaining why these bidding sequences are used. Its MUCH more difficult to understand bidding sequences if you don't understand the purpose behind them.

I'd strongly recommend that you get your mentor to explain the "why". If your mentor can't explain why a sequence is (best) used in a certain way he might be doing more harm than good.

[Stephen Tu]

I'll assume you meant ♠ everywhere you stated ♥, as otherwise your auction makes no sense (2c-2d-2h-2h).

2♠ as an artificial waiting bid is usually only applied if opener's 2♥ was "Kokish", showing either hearts or a huge (25+) balanced hand. This allows opener to rebid 2nt with the balanced hand (then NT systems on), or a suit with the hearts hand. In this case 2nt shows spades though I think it's usually showing 6 not 5, or at least I think it ought to. (it's easy enough to show 5 spades with 3 spades later, harder to show 6 if partner rebids at the 3 level). But different schemes are possible.

Without Kokish agreed, then it's normal to just play 2♠/2nt as natural.


As for opener's jump shift, 1♥-1♠-3♣, it is indeed often semi-artificial, don't know if "usually". Why? Because sometimes you have huge one suiters that want to force to game, a jump rebid of 3♥ is non-forcing, and a jump to 4♥ consumes too much space, and shows a more distributional hand, less in high cards.

It would be different with a strong or variable club system with different ways of showing a big hand. It would also be different playing some systems with say Acol strong 2s, where you could arguably offload some of the strong one suited hands.

Non-jump third suit by opener is normally played as natural however, in standard systems.

[helene_t]

1♥-1♠
3♣
is natural in almost all styles. "3rd suit forcing" may be agreed in situations like
1♣-1♠
2♣-2♦
but even that is not "standard".

As for
2♣-2♦
2♥-2♠
it is quite common in the Netherlands to play it as artificial I think. Not sure about other countries. Presumably 2NT would have shown spades.

[bobbywjch]

thanks for the replies. having read your replies I suddenly realised this is kokish 2♥. As I have never used this convention before, I was baffled by the Q I had. I'll read more about kokish 2♥, Thanks for the answers again!