[microcap]

Rex and jay,

So here is today's bridge question. You are vul, your partner opens 1D and RHO bids 1S. You have four hearts and so you double, LHO bids 2S, your partner bids 3H, and RHO bids 3S. Did 3H show extras, or did it just say partner has four hearts?


Anne and Bob are our fabulous teammates who carry us always. Before you answer, they play precision so 1♦ is 11-15 with possibly 1 diamond.

It will not shock you regulars that Rex and I had absolutely diametrically opposite views on this problem!!

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the answer is, it depends.

If you play some sort of good bad 2NT in this kind
of siuation, you have the chance to diferentiate
between a purely competive 3H and a inv. raise.

Playing no gadget at all, I would say, you have to
guess, but partner wont go to the 3 level with a
dead min.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[the hog]

Surely you play good/bad 2NT here. It's a lot better than the guess you obviously had. If you don't play good/bad, why not?

[FrancesHinden]

The_Hog, on Mar 14 2008, 02:35 PM, said:

Surely you play good/bad 2NT here. It's a lot better than the guess you obviously had. If you don't play good/bad, why not?

Because the 1D opening is already limited?

[the hog]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 14 2008, 08:40 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 14 2008, 02:35 PM, said:

Surely you play good/bad 2NT here. It's a lot better than the guess you obviously had. If you don't play good/bad, why not?

Because the 1D opening is already limited?

Even so, there is can can still be a big disparity in hand quality. We played a big C system and would not have dispensed with G/B. Anyway, do you seriously want to play a natural 2NT bid here in these auctions?

[jvage]

Last time I saw this discussed I was surprised to see how many that think this does not show extra

Assuming you don't play good/bad IMO it's best to pass with a minimum and later show your support if partner double/bid (as he normally will with a bit extra for his negative double). Bidding directly shows extra, but you need not have enough for a jump to 3♥ left on your own (around 13 to 15). Bidding 3♥ with a minimum will often get you to 4♥ when you have 9 tricks and result in going down in 3♥ (vulnerable, possibly doubled) when you have less than 9 tricks.

The point-ranges are not very different if you play standard methods, but you could be a little better for the "free" 3♥ (around a good 13 to a bad 17).

John

[han]

Does not show extra values.

[cherdano]

Shows mild extras in context but not much. I would pass with QJx Jxxx AQxx JT (assuming this is a minimum opener).

[gnasher]

Without any special arrangements, I think 3♥ only promises enough to compete, but might have more. If responder has invitational values, he should then raise to game, leaving the opponents to guess whether to save.

Even playing good-bad, I don't think that 2NT should include hands with hearts. I'd rather face

  1♦       1♠       dbl      2♠
  3♥*     3♠
* wide range

than
  1♦       1♠       dbl      2♠
  2NT** 3♠
** might or might not have hearts

After a limited opening, I think it's best to play 2NT as a good raise in hearts, and forget differentiating between strengths on other hand-types. There's also a case for doing this in a standard system.

[Apollo81]

Mild extras but not much if undiscussed and not playing any form of GB.

[andy_h]

I'd say mild extras. Boring flat mins can just pass first

[jdonn]

Does not show more than a minimum, but if you are minimum it should say you like your hand IMO.

[han]

jdonn, on Mar 14 2008, 11:48 AM, said:

Does not show more than a minimum, but if you are minimum it should say you like your hand IMO.

Exactly right imo. With 4 decent hearts and two small spades we would always bid 3H wouldn't we?

[awm]

I think 3♥ shows extras. Not as much as a jump to 3♥ unobstructed, but still extras. With most "weak notrump" hands I would pass 2♠. Why is it right to compete with an eight card fit (only) over what could even be a seven card fit (if opponents sometimes overcall 1♠ on four)? And how is partner to gauge his next call if he had what originally looked like an invitational hand?

This exact auction is an example in one of Ron Klinger's books.

[mikeh]

3♥ should show extras. I think it unplayable otherwise... how on earth is responder to know when to raise to game... regardless of whether the opps bid 3♠ over 3♥? Advancer is allowed to hold a hand with game interest opposite extras, is he not? Yet he is also allowed to hold a hand that will not make game opposite extras.. so that opener can't bid 4♥ without a very unusual hand.

The most important point is that pass by opener does not deny 4 hearts... remember, responder is STILL THERE!

We don't need to bid his hand for him.. if we belong in game or even in 3♥, he will almost always be able to double 2♠ and then we can bid our 3♥.

BTW, 'extras' needn't be a lot of hcp... a shapely hcp minimum is fine... but 2=4=4=3's and the like should be passing with 11-bad 13.

[gnasher]

I'd assumed that we were being asked whether opener is allowed to have a minimum which actually wants to compete to 3♥. If the question is "Can it be any hand with four hearts?", my answer is no.

Does anyone, in fact, routinely bid 3♥ as opener whenever they have four of them?

[CSGibson]

gnasher, on Mar 14 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

I'd assumed that we were being asked whether opener is allowed to have a minimum which actually wants to compete to 3♥. If the question is "Can it be any hand with four hearts?", my answer is no.

Does anyone, in fact, routinely bid 3♥ as opener whenever they have four of them?

I've had partners who would bid to the 4 level with any hand with 4 card support in a competitive auction if that's the first bid they can make to show their support.

[benlessard]

With 2S or less and 4H ill always bid 3H. Partner could have 35?? and will pass 2S. Partner could even have a weakish hand with 6 bad H and will pass 2S. Ill pass with 3433 shapes but maybe bidding is better.

If you play good-bad then having H pose np for me.

[pclayton]

I'd say that it doesn't show extras but you do have a reason to bid. That reason ought to be something in addition to just having 4H.

[rogerclee]

It has extras in the sense that it isn't some 3433 hand with 12 HCP. With a 1444 12-count, for example, I would almost always bid 3♥.

This is a great example of why I love, love, love to raise/preempt in partner's overcall after they make a negative double.