awm, on Mar 11 2008, 01:44 AM, said:
Not to add to the flames here, but just a random comment...
It seems like one of the big selling points of bridge browser is the hand data which is taken from BBO (okay the older data is from OKB). This data would seem to belong to BBO, and Fred has graciously decided to allow members to browse it for free via myhands (of course, making hand records available is probably an important selling point for a site promising to provide online bridge).
Nonetheless, bridge browser makes its money at least in part by selling databases of these hands. And it's also being advertised pretty heavily on the bridgebase forums, including by one of the moderators of the forums.
All things considered, I'd hope that BBO receives some cut from this.
Let me start off by saying that I will never mention this product in these forums again by name, and I will only respond to people in threads like this one if they mention it or ask about it.
Let me follow up by pointing out that I have never suggested anyone go to the website where the browser is "sold" and pay for it. Let me further point out that the advertisements for it here (I will accept that characterization) is for a free version and that people who gain access to either version through playing in homebase do so with BBO making more money off them than the owners of homebase. That is a fact. I will not share with you the pricing scheme Fred charges organizations per table, but take my word for it, with the organizations giving out cash to winners etc plus paying BBO fees and paying directors (if not directing themselves of having volunteer directors) bbo makes out fine.
Let me also note that EVERY BBO yellow gets free 100% access to the program I am not mentioning by name. That is the hook that gets BBO to share the data with Stephen. The yellows can use that data for whatever purpose they see fit. It was therefore somewhat odd when two yellows wrote for the free day access. In replying to them, I reminded them that free access was one of several benefit BBO offers those who are yellow.
I will say that I thought I was being sensitive to concerns like those expressed in this thread, by trying to keep the threads bridge related. Apparently I was not. At one time I added a large red signature touting that program, I meant to leave it up a week, I left it somewhat longer, but once I realized it was there too long, I took it down. I am not removing the homebase signature or my avatar mentioning it. In this particular thread, so one, I think richard, but not sure, asked if you could find all the auctions for any one hand. I replied either publically or in an PM/email that it could not be done. Then while looking at the hand in this slam, I noticed that those who bid the slam, all bid it differently (hand play 39 times, 10 bid slam). I found that curious, and in messing with it, I stumbled on the way to print out all the auctions (or selected ones). I found the hand and auctions interesting enough to post. After posting, I came back and added the mention of the program as an aside to address the earlier issue.
The recent flurry in mentioning the program was in preparation of offering it free versions of it for one and all. In part because of a commonly, and I happen to believe mistaken, view that the data contained is useless (the garbage in garbage out syndrome). The first step in the moving to free data and the expected influx of users who will use it if it is "free" was the trial just a few days ago to make sure it wouldn't crumble to its knees with a lot of new users hammering on it. The program was written as a standalone product, and then adapted to server client product, so a lot of people banging on it at once is a reasonable concern.
I had thought we would just throw it open to one and all, but stephen shot that idea down for a good reason (see my first and second post in the thredd announcing the free trial). The other free offers (which were going to be posted in this forum,
but now for obvious reasons will not be) are occassional free days, much like the free GIB days on BBO (but not monthly), the addition of millions of "older" bbo hands to the one version that is always free to anyone who plays just once in homebase even as a sub, and basically free access to the full version for regulars or the homebase tournaments. Because of the concerns of BBO regulars expressed in this thread, anyone wanting to experience any of the free trials will now have to figure out where to find announcements of them (registering at the address in my signature will probably work).
In closing, I like the product. I used it before it was free to all yellows. I still use it weekly, and often daily. I use it to find interesting play hands, interesting hands for testing bidding conventions, to examine the bidding of players I wish to emulate, and of players whose auctions confuse the hell out of me. I use it to examine partnership tendencies when I am going to be a commentator on Vugraph, and I am working on the database of hands for it made up of ONLY vugraph hands played on BBO (or grabbed from other public online databases). Anyone who had been clever enough in their trial to find out how to find only BBO team games, would have also uncovered things like "ACBL team trials", "ACBL Women's team trials", "bermuda bowl" , "Arboned teams" "blue ribbon pairs", "cap gemini", "cavendish" and more than a dozen other events, including "world junior teams" and ending in "world open pairs". These use to be turned on, so they were accessible, they are currently turned off, but there is an initiative to get the vugraph data "fixed" and turned these back on.
HAving someone struggle with "it" (the program) is useful, because I know the growing pains it takes to become experienced using the program. Many of the yellows tried it and then gave up. Often for the same reason that 1eyedjack and awn expressed frustration with it. When you try to extract specific data without using first using the brd shape/hcp tab to generate specific indexes it can be quite frustrating.... I know that I went to bed many times with it churning away and woke up the next morning and it was still going. Now I know that is the WRONG way to do it, but no doubt every user will try it that way at first, because the right way is FAR from obvious, despite being explained in the help files. Like the other users, I didn't read the help files until after I said "this is just too stupid, there has to be a better way." The first free trial showed the program, for the most part, can stand up to larger numbers being logged on. Now I need a beta tester(s) to help me with what key info we need to provide users before turning them loose on the program.
So in this, my final comments on this subject, I hope stephen will agree with me to allow awn (should he want it) at least several weeks of free access to the full database. The reason being as noted we need some beta testers to hammer away at it, and while he is skeptical he seems the most willing to give it a decent and fair trial. An open minded skeptic is perfect for such a trial. I am perfectly willing to allow him to post his observations (good or bad) here, but given the current climate, I would suggest he post it on the homebase forum to avoid pissing off those who are alergic to even a mention of the program. I will also be more than willing to offer advice to him daily, and if he gives me his phone number, talk him through any glitches he might encounter (although it is more useful if he finds confusing things first, then I help, so I can understand where users might go wrong). If awn doesn't want to do this, I will pick someone else, preferrabley in the US to try (US so I can call them if need be). I had thought we would offer the beta tester option to the small cluster of people I sent unsolicited the initial password to for free access (for example this group included han, justin, and two others), but from the tone of their post and stephens in this thread, it doesn't sound like they would be interested in being a beta tester, nor does it sound like stephen would allow them even if they were.
(A PS... Stephen is in fact losing money on server version of this program, as he has very few real customers. In fact, he was considering shutting it down sometime ago, which is why I got involved with him and homebase. I am totally selfish here, I want the site to stay up, and continually to be updated, because i use it. So I came up wth the homebase idea as a way to try to generate income to pay for the fees of keeping the server open).
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