[navit]

My parner bids 1Nt. then opponents overcall at 2 level/How do I ask for 4 CARD majors if 2 C not available? Same question concerning Jacoby Transfer

[TylerE]

Lebensohl...learn it, love it, etc. Solves all these problems. Oh, and don't listen to any players (especially frequent opponenets...) who suggest "stolen bid X" or similar treatments.

[awm]

If opponents double or overcall 2♣, many people play "systems on" where 2♣ remains stayman (over double) or double becomes stayman (over 2♣).

Otherwise, the standard answer is that bidding a suit at the two-level is "to play" whereas bidding a suit at the three-level is forcing to game. Cuebidding the opponents' suit is stayman. Double is penalty.

Many established pairs play lebensohl in this auction in order to allow them to sign off at the three-level and/or ask for stoppers effectively. The most standard agreement is that bidding 2NT forces partner to bid 3♣, after which any three-level call other than a cuebid is non-forcing. A direct 3NT bid is "to play" without a stopper and 2NT followed by 3NT is "to play" with a stopper (slow shows/fast denies). A direct cuebid is "stayman without a stopper" and 2NT followed by cuebid is "stayman with a stopper" (again slow shows/fast denies).

Obviously many other (possibly more complex) agreements about lebensohl are possible. And some modern pairs are playing 1NT-(bid)-X as takeout/negative rather than penalty (so can do this with a stayman hand).

[Cascade]

Negative doubles are great for finding the four-four major fits.

Bid your five-card suits to find other fits possibly with the help of a gadget like Lebensohl.

[Yogeshdg]

navit, on Mar 10 2008, 01:40 PM, said:

My parner bids 1Nt. then opponents overcall at 2 level/How do I ask for 4 CARD majors if 2 C not available? Same question concerning Jacoby Transfer

If opps overcalls are natural I play x of minor as stayman . If overcalled suit is major play lebenshol.

[skjaeran]

Play negative doubles and some version of lebensohl/rubensohl.

[Free]

skaeran, on Mar 11 2008, 12:05 AM, said:

Play negative doubles and some version of lebensohl/rubensohl.

Agree

[Tola18]

TylerE, on Mar 10 2008, 01:43 PM, said:

Oh, and don't listen to any players (especially frequent opponenets...) who suggest "stolen bid X" or similar treatments.

Stolen Bid X isnt that bad. Easy to remember, and easy to understand. It depends of course also on whom is telling.
For a beginner it is a great improvement over being helpless and forced into sheer guessing. Probably one of the first own made conventions. (was myself there!).
Surely not the best weapon around, but better a semi-decent weapon then none weapon at all...


And listening to knowleable and perhaps even friendly opps isnt not bad at all. As long as you dont automatically copy everything they say.

You can very often get some interesting ideas if you listen actively. Often also from opps who arent no experts, as long they are honest and well wishing people.

[Tola18]

Right. So the solution to many problems seems to be most simply using X as take-out, and for the more advanced, together with some nice variation of Lebensohl. So is my though too: most easy so.

But the alternative using X as business-proposal (point-holding) is very attempting. Especielly when they are in red.

Worth mentioning is Lebensohl originale was based on a point-holding balanced double. It is why it can get complicated in some variations!!! Playing Leb with a take-out double is much easier.

I read once poll and discussion on this theme by about 100 swedish experts. They debated the pro and contras of the two different D approaches. They finally agreed they were theoretically about equal. But you must know which one you do play with, and decide yourself which one you feel best with.

For a advanced and steady pair, the best would perhaps be to play it depending on zone?

Question: Ok, D should be negative / take out. So how few points are allowed??
Ie.
Should this take out be constructive, with some possibility to business pass, or it may be allowed as fighting for partscore, with few points but excellent distribution, say 4414?

[helene_t]

Tola18, on Mar 11 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

Stolen Bid X isnt that bad.

Agree. If overcaller has shown a suit it is extra important to let opener declarer so that the opening lead is not going through any honor he might have in opp's suit.

But (and now I'm going to contradict myself): it is better to read a book written by knowledgeable author who presents a coherent treatment than listening to random opps who may very well be incoherent. As it happens, no textbooks AFAIK recommend "stolen bid". They will recommend either penalty doubles or negative doubles (or may optional doubles), combined with either lebensohl, rubensohl (or maybe rumpensohl).

[the hog]

Stolen bid is poor. Play Rubensohl and Sputnik doubles. Of course you can still penalise the opps for an injudicious overcall when playing Sputnik. To suggest otherwise is just plain incorrect - opener can and should re open with a double when short in their suit.

[awm]

The problem with "stolen bid" is that it's basically impossible to penalize. Take for example 1NT-(2♥).

A stolen bid double shows nothing about values (any hand that wants to play 2♠ is okay) so opener can't really convert it. Frequency-wise, the double will also be rare.

In comparison, a penalty double obviously allows you to penalize. And a negative double allows opener to convert with a suitable hand (it's both more frequent and shows more values than the stolen bid double).

[TylerE]

And the other problem with stolen bids is that it if LHO jacks the preempt, you're in a world of trouble:

1NT - (2H) - X - (4H)

Now what? Opener has no way to show degree of fit or otherwise evaluate his hand. Playing a lebensohl type structure responder clearly shows his hand strength.

[Zelandakh]

TylerE, on Mar 11 2008, 06:07 PM, said:

And the other problem with stolen bids is that it if LHO jacks the preempt, you're in a world of trouble:

1NT - (2H) - X - (4H)

Now what? Opener has no way to show degree of fit or otherwise evaluate his hand. Playing a lebensohl type structure responder clearly shows his hand strength.

I assume you meant Rubensohl (Rubinsohl) here. Playing Lebensohl, after
1NT - (2♥) - 2NT - (4♥) you still have no idea about partner's strength. Stolen Bid Double is fine over a natural 2♣ overcall, not so good the rest of the time.

[helene_t]

Zelandakh, on Mar 13 2008, 07:38 AM, said:

I assume you meant Rubensohl (Rubinsohl) here. Playing Lebensohl, after
1NT - (2♥) - 2NT - (4♥) you still have no idea about partner's strength. Stolen Bid Double is fine over a natural 2♣ overcall, not so good the rest of the time.

True, but sometimes responder bids either 3♠ or 2♠ instead of 2NT, and then opener does know responder's strength.

[Free]

I only like stolen bid after 2♣ overcalls. Otherwise it's just complete rubish!

[Gerben42]

Quote

I only like stolen bid after 2♣ overcalls. Otherwise it's just complete rubish!

That about sums it up. As a related question, recently I came up against this convention for the first time:

1NT (2♣ = ♥ and another)

Partner thought Dbl should show "points" here rather than some kind of Stayman. What do you think?

[Free]

Gerben42, on Mar 13 2008, 12:25 PM, said:

Quote

I only like stolen bid after 2♣ overcalls. Otherwise it's just complete rubish!

That about sums it up. As a related question, recently I came up against this convention for the first time:

1NT (2♣ = ♥ and another)

Partner thought Dbl should show "points" here rather than some kind of Stayman. What do you think?

Some form of astro. Dbl should show ♣, like in every 'transfer overcall'-situation...

[Cascade]

Free, on Mar 14 2008, 04:30 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Mar 13 2008, 12:25 PM, said:

Quote

I only like stolen bid after 2♣ overcalls. Otherwise it's just complete rubish!

That about sums it up. As a related question, recently I came up against this convention for the first time:

1NT (2♣ = ♥ and another)

Partner thought Dbl should show "points" here rather than some kind of Stayman. What do you think?

Some form of astro. Dbl should show ♣, like in every 'transfer overcall'-situation...

We play double over an artificial overcall as showing points. This seems to work well. It invites opener to cooperate when she might not otherwise. In particular she can make a takeout double - yes the next double will be takeout by either partner.