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best system? what do u think?

#1 User is offline   helium 

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  Posted 2004-March-04, 07:24

hiya folks:)
I was wondering if i could get some thougt from you posters abaut system, what system u recomend and why?
im 26 years old and ive played bridge 3 years this sommer, i only play norwegian standard now, (pretty mutch like full sayc,whit multi and some other simple gadgets) but im thinking of learing 2/1 but ist this really a better system?
im a fast learner and have a good bridge understanding but im not to found of reading system teory (i find this boring) so i want to learn a system thats not to far from what in know now. guess presison require a lot of reading.so il wait whit that till i get (the ants out of my pans) and find it intressting to read new systems.
thx for your comments.

kenneth
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#2 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 07:31

helium, on Mar 4 2004, 01:24 PM, said:

hiya folks:)
I was wondering if i could get some thougt from you posters abaut system, what system u recomend and why?
im 26 years old and ive played bridge 3 years this sommer, i only play norwegian standard now, (pretty mutch like full sayc,whit multi and some other simple gadgets) but im thinking of learing 2/1 but ist this really a better system?
im a fast learner and have a good bridge understanding but im not to found of reading system teory (i find this boring) so i want to learn a system thats not to far from what in know now. guess presison require a lot of reading.so il wait whit that till i get (the ants out of my pans) and find it intressting to read new systems.
thx for your comments.

kenneth

I think mike lawrence's 2 over 1 is a good system. YOu shold learn it whatever you play. It is logical, clear, and natural, most of time:)

Perhaps learn one precision is also necesary. I am reading Hamman-soloway's precisio. I like it very much.
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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 08:40

I think the best system I know so far is Moscito, but it's completely different from what you play now (strong , 4 card majors in trf openings, frelling two's,...). It's good because it's very agressive (opens about 66% of the time) and has a full relay structure for slam investigation. But it contains about 150 pages to learn the system (very easy to read imo, I've done it, but 150 seems a lot).

Otherwise I think that 2/1 is better than sayc, certainly for slam aproach, because you win a lot of bidding space after a 2/1 bidding. But in pairs it might sometimes fail because you can't play 1NT anymore after a 1M opening (but that's not a big disadvantage). No system is perfect...

What makes a natural system better is a weak NT (or variable). I usually play 11-14 when NV in 1&2 hand, 10-13 in 3&4, and 15-17 when V. I haven't had much troubles with it, only my opps have them (ask Luke Warm how great weak NT is, he plays it 10-13 all the time - V I'm not sure).
Also if you want to improve a natural bidding system, it's better to insert some gadgets, and better 2-level openings. The standard weak-two's are just fine, but not great! Improve the 2-level opening structure so it becomes more frequent, and you'll gain more than you lose.
Inverted minors is a must-have when playing sayc or something similar, unless you use some kind of other relay bid.
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#4 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 09:28

If you want to learn a new system that is not much different from what you play now, totally forget freee's suggestion of moscito.

I certainly recommend 2/1. The basic system isn't hard to learn. With it, you can keep your multi-2D and mulderberg. However, I suggest you modernize your version of those two bids. Go read how Chris Rydall plays them at:

multi 2d scheme click here

Muiderberg and lebehnsol type responses...click here

I have found that I very much like this responding structure.

You will have to see how to play 2/1 GF.. I suggest maybe Fred's improving 2/1 GF, it is short, and easy to read, but quite informative.

Good luck.

Ben
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#5 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 09:41

helium, on Mar 4 2004, 04:24 PM, said:

hiya folks:)
I was wondering if i could get some thougt from you posters abaut system, what system u recomend and why?
im 26 years old and ive played bridge 3 years this sommer, i only play norwegian standard now, (pretty mutch like full sayc,whit multi and some other simple gadgets) but im thinking of learing 2/1 but ist this really a better system?
im a fast learner and have a good bridge understanding but im not to found of reading system teory (i find this boring) so i want to learn a system thats not to far from what in know now. guess presison require a lot of reading.so il wait whit that till i get (the ants out of my pans) and find it intressting to read new systems.
thx for your comments.

kenneth

The "best" system is the one that best matches your own "style". Of course, the trick is learning your style well enough to judge which systems would be a good fit.

If you don't like "theory", then you might prefer a fairly simple and natural system like Acol. At the very least, it will provide you with a interesting comparison to 5 card majors.

With this said and done, MOSCITO rocks
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#6 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 10:29

hrothgar, on Mar 5 2004, 12:41 AM, said:

With this said and done, MOSCITO rocks

Yeah! :)
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#7 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 16:51

I have played big C systems for many years - Symmetric, Precision and Moscito, have played Acol, 2/1 and am currently playing some Polish based systems.

Moscito is a lot of fun and a great system, allowing you to get in and out of the action really quickly, BUT has 2 major failings:

1) You better not forget any bids in relay auctions. eg Marston stuffed up a couple of auctions in the recent South West Pacific teams because he forgot the system - and it is his system. He missed an excellent slam because of one of these lapses.

2) Moscito has the failing associated with all big C systems in that it encourages intervention on absolute garbage. That may or may not be a problem. Frankly I got sick of opps bidding a supposed 2 suiter on 4333 shapes and the resulting director calls and aggravation.

Frankly I think Strefa or Matula's version of Polish club are FAR better than 2/1 and to my mind, remove a good part of the silly intervention that you encounter with big C systems.

Ron
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#8 User is offline   stansllee 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 18:03

Quote

Moscito has the failing associated with all big C systems in that it encourages intervention on absolute garbage. That may or may not be a problem.


Relay players tend to fall into two groups; those who abandon their system after virtually any interference and those who don't. My relay approach is definitely the latter. Relay systems can deal extremely well with even high-level interference.

I would like to share with anyone or read your method over Interference in Relay Auctions!

Let's start from this auction: 1D (2D) ??

Moscito 1D = 10-14, no Major
RHO overcall 2D = natural, diamonds suit
You have:

KQ984
AK6
void
A10985

What's your bid in your method?
My method is double to initiate a Game force relay
Now the auction proceed: 1D (2D) dbl (2H)
The 1D opener hold:

A62
52
KJ5
KQ432

What's the rebid by 1D opener? Do you abandon your system or do you keep relaying?
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#9 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 18:09

Well, I don't get it. Helium is asking for a system that is close to the natural system he plays, that doesn't require a lot of study, and is not based on a strong club system?

Quote

Quotes from helium:
1) i only play norwegian standard now,
2) but im not to found of reading system teory (i find this boring)
3) want to learn a system thats not to far from what in know now
4) guess presison require a lot of reading.so il wait whit that


I don't think, therefore, this is the thread to restart the moscito flurry. And, as a following, if you learn moscito, you will need to get your partner to learn it. If you play SAYC, 2/1 GF, or some other basic system (acol, etc), you can find lots of partners to play with. Helium, ask yourself this, what do the good players on BBO you play with or would like to play with play? If that is 2/1... then learn 2/1. If that is moscito or precision, ok, maybe you should learn that.


Ben
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Posted 2004-March-04, 19:06

The topic was "best system?", so I guess I should tell you my idea about the best system (Moscito for me). I'm also aware that the chance you'll play it is very small. But if you want to keep bidding natural, play acol, sayc, 2/1 or something similar (not VERY much choice). You can do whatever you want, but keep in mind that the best systems open strong hands on a low bid (mostly 1 these days).

The biggest changes you can make is inserting some gadgets to be able to bid out special hands. There's not much more you can do if you want to play a natural based system, except changing your 1 opening to a polish kind...
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#11 User is offline   helium 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 19:07

yes thx ben:) ill try to learn 2/1 i think:)
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#12 User is offline   helium 

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Posted 2004-March-04, 19:22

Free, on Mar 4 2004, 08:06 PM, said:

The topic was "best system?", so I guess I should tell you my idea about the best system (Moscito for me). I'm also aware that the chance you'll play it is very small. But if you want to keep bidding natural, play acol, sayc, 2/1 or something similar (not VERY much choice). You can do whatever you want, but keep in mind that the best systems open strong hands on a low bid (mostly 1 these days).

The biggest changes you can make is inserting some gadgets to be able to bid out special hands. There's not much more you can do if you want to play a natural based system, except changing your 1 opening to a polish kind...

thx:) im glad for all all suggestions and i see most experst play strong club system,
but im hasitating a little to learn it couse its a lot of chances from the natural system im playing now.i try to read a little aboult strong c polish c and other presisions system,but only so i know enough to play against players who play it.
but thx for your suggestions and views:)

kenneth
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#13 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-March-05, 07:58

Spoiler
Hi helium!
Spoiler
I know that Boian sometimes played with you and say about you not very bad words, not often by the way. My advice for sayc player is to read WJ2000, version of polish club, based on opinion of majority of polish experts about modern natural system. It combine simple bidding, also 2/1 gf with better usage of bidding space.
Spoiler
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#14 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2004-March-05, 08:47

What are some good links on Polish Club variants?
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#15 User is offline   the saint 

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Posted 2004-March-05, 08:58

Sure its fun to experiment - I do have a hankering for trying one of the relay systems at some point and having a go at Polish club - but in the end I always find myself thinking, 'I wish I was playing my methods'. For the record I am an Acol, 12-14, 4 card major man, and I am not going to go into the pro's and con's of each system. Its just that when I am in the heat of real battle, I know what I am 100% comfortable with, because I know it inside out. Several times I have has the situation crop up where I am thinking, 'I know exactly what I would have done in my system!' By all means experiment, it improves your understanding and knowledge of the game, but remember where your heart lies.
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#16 User is offline   cwiggins 

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Posted 2004-March-05, 17:58

pbleighton, on Mar 5 2004, 02:47 PM, said:

What are some good links on Polish Club variants?

Four versions are posted at
http://www.geocities.../sys/index.html
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#17 User is offline   Rado 

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Posted 2004-March-05, 23:45

Hi Kenneth and all,

The answer to your question might be found studying the world top partnerships' systems in use and after that trying to find the version or modification which suits most to your and your partner style. I'm smiling every time when some of our friends declare that MOSCITO is the best. Maybe it is really the best one, but still we cannot see major world successes based on MOSCITO:-).
For example I will say that "System Rozkladowy" is the best ( variation of Ruminsli/Slawinski strong PASS)

Rado
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#18 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-March-10, 09:32

It depends mostly on what you are planning on doing, are you going to play with many different pd's or is there 1 pd who you are going play with for a long time. In most cases I would strongly recommend 2/1 with some gadgets, if you want to play something a little more complex go with 2/1 with Variable NT openings.
Relay systems can be fun but you need to study a lot, and if you forget something :D and most playing this when they get intervered with are going down the drain real quick.
I rather play 2/1 with Variable NT, and some nice simple gadgets. More importantly is to get good defensive carding, since 50% of time you will be defending.

Mike :D
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#19 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-March-10, 09:38

And another thing you have to keep in mind, is that certain systems you can't play in a lot of places. Again you are better of playing a natural system with maybe a better way to evaluate your hand. I really like the Zarpoints system
Go with that and you'll see.

Mike :D
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#20 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2004-March-10, 11:49

Trpltrbl, on Mar 10 2004, 06:38 PM, said:

And another thing you have to keep in mind, is that certain systems you can't play in a lot of places. Again you are better of playing a natural system with maybe a better way to evaluate your hand. I really like the Zarpoints system
Go with that and you'll see.

Mike :D

What Trpltrbl doesn't seem to appreciate is that relay methods are a "means" rather than an "end" in and of themself. I play MOSCITO a lot. However, I have found that I relay with relatively few hands.

"Artificial" systems like MOSCITO are much more honest in that all the "strangeness" is localized. In the case of MOSCITO, the system requires a strong club opening, trnasfer openings, and uses relays with certain strong hand types. However, the vast majority of the system is designed for a simple, natural, bashing bidding style.

Furthermore, while I agree with Trpltrb's basic point that a bidding system should be designed to permit considerable flexibility regarding where to play, I think that it is ludicrous to claim that a 2/1 style evaluates well using this type of metric.

Just for fun, lets compare a standard 2/1 style with MOSCITO.
The 2/1 bidder has just opened 1S, showing 5+ Spades
The MOSCITO player has just opened 1H, showing 4+ Spades

[Please recall, Trbltrp is the one who established the evaluation criteria]

1NT Response
Playing 2/1, 1N is forcing
Playing MOSCITO, 1N is natural and non-forcing
Advantage: MOSCITO

2C Response
Playing 2/1, 2C game forcing
Playing MOSCITO, 2C is natural and non-forcing
Advantage: MOSCITO

2D Response
Playing 2/1, 2D is game forcing
Playing MOSCITO, 2D is natural and non-forcing
Advantage: MOSCITO

2H Response
Playing 2/1, 2H is game forcing
Playing MOSCITO, 2H is natural and non-forcing
Advantage MOSCITO

Bids from 2S up are going to evaluate as neutral
Both systems treat them approximately the same.

In short, your nice natural 2/1 structure doesn't evaluate too well using your own selection criteria
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