[benlessard]

1♣ - 1♥
3♣ - 3♦
???

3♥ at least 2H with an honnor
3♠ half a S stopper
3Nt to play
4♣ none of the above


1C----1H
3C----3D
3Nt----???

4♣= clubs fit (keycard in my case) tend to deny a S control.

1C-----1H
3C-----4C

4♣= clubs fit (keycard in my case) D+S control.

1C-----1H
3C-----3S
3Nt-----4C

4C= clubs fit (keycard in my case) tend to deny a D control.

The danger of 3D are

1-that if partner respond 3S and you bid 4C its it forcing ?
2- if partner bid 3H and you bid 4C what is it choice of game or a cue ?
3- if partner respond 3Nt and you try 4C does it show choice of game or fit with advanced cue with no S control ?

my strong preference is that

1- 4C isnt forcing in mp (we dont have a S stop i want to stop in 4C) but forcing in imps (choice of game 4H or 5C).
2- 4C is a cue & H is set as trumps
3- Advanced cue with no S controls. (if i had 3514 or 4513) i would have jumped to 4D over 3C and if i have 1534 or i would bid 4H over 3C.) I bid 3H with all hand with 67 H slammish or not and i bid 3D on hand looking for H support except the non-slammish 1534)

The main point is that 4C after 3D simply doesnt have the same meaning then 4C directly. Whatever information you get by 3D will probably be useless. Making an advance cuebids will deny a S controls (the way i play at least)

[cherdano]

Echognome, on Feb 26 2008, 02:46 PM, said:

han, on Feb 26 2008, 12:38 PM, said:

Two reasons why 3D is poor:

1) For the rest of the auction partner will not have a clue what you have.

2) You may not be able to ask for keycards later with clubs as trumps.

Whether it is poor or very poor depends on expectations.

1) So instead of bidding 4♣ this round, we bid it the next round. What is partner going to think we have?

1♣ - 1♥; 3♣ - 3♦; 3♥ - 4♣

or

1♣ - 1♥; 3♣ - 3♦; 3NT - 4♣

Both seem like auctions where we made an advanced cue. However, I do agree that they would tend to deny a spade card.

2) So what? Is it all that great to keycard for clubs, especially given that we aren't playing minorwood or kickback? I'm content enough to make noises cuebidding given the agreements. We don't have to always reach slam with keycarding, although it will certainly be tougher to reach grand if that is correct. I'm not worried about the latter.

I just don't think you are giving any merit to a bid that is going to let partner describe his hand for one more round. Partner's options over 4♣ seem to be cuebid or 4NT as an offer (and also something one would like to have discussed).

I don't agree you are well-placed if partner bids 3♥ (bidding 3♦ then 4♣ suggests an unbalanced hand to me, so partner will assume a heart fit). You are placed worse when he bids 4♣ (now is 4♦ natural or a cue for clubs) or bids 4♦ (silly partner why did you raise me?).

[cherdano]

Echognome, on Feb 26 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

Cascade, on Feb 26 2008, 12:24 PM, said:

It is going to be very hard to bid no trumps on this auction AND show your values AND show your club fit.

This is a much harder problem at MPs (which is the condition in the opening post).

After a 4♣ raise we play that an immediate 4NT from opener (partner) is an offer to play with a hand unsuited to slam exploration.  One cue-bid and we now have both partner's cooperating for slam (forcing 4♣ and cue) and we can no longer play in No Trumps below six.  We also play kickback so over 4♣ 4♦ is RKCB.  If we choose to cue then a subsequent 4NT by either partner is a diamond cue.

This is only a problem at IMPs when we can make 9+ tricks in no trumps and 10 or fewer in clubs. 

Trying to show everything suggests keeping the bidding low with a nebulous 3♦ but we found the auction becomes murky too easily and have settled for making a decision and going with an unambiguous route. 

I guess there is still a choice here 1. 4♣ to agree clubs or 2. 3♦ followed by a quantitative 4NT over 3NT or 3♠.

Agree with pretty much all you said. I didn't have such agreements, so there's something to be said for just clarifying right away what your intent is with 4♣.

On the given hand I went with 3♦ and then bid 4NT.

Partner bid 5♦, so I just bid 6NT. I had no idea whether 5♦ was an offer or some blackwood response or some keycard response. (turns out he thought it was the latter for clubs..)

What? Partner took your 4N raise as keycard for clubs??

[Echognome]

cherdano, on Feb 26 2008, 01:28 PM, said:

I don't agree you are well-placed if partner bids 3♥ (bidding 3♦ then 4♣ suggests an unbalanced hand to me, so partner will assume a heart fit). You are placed worse when he bids 4♣ (now is 4♦ natural or a cue for clubs) or bids 4♦ (silly partner why did you raise me?).

And 4♣ over 3♣ suggests a balanced one? (I agree it's probably ambiguous)

Over 4♣ or 4♦ I would just bid 6♣. I agree that I'm hand-cuffed over these, but it's what I would do.

[han]

Echognome, on Feb 26 2008, 03:46 PM, said:

1) So instead of bidding 4♣ this round, we bid it the next round. What is partner going to think we have?

1♣ - 1♥; 3♣ - 3♦; 3♥ - 4♣

Not sure, what do you think this shows? Difficult auction.

Quote

or

1♣ - 1♥; 3♣ - 3♦; 3NT - 4♣

This one is clearly a slam try in clubs. Presumably we bid 3D to look for a heart fit, or perhaps a diamond fit.

Quote

2) So what?  Is it all that great to keycard for clubs, especially given that we aren't playing minorwood or kickback?  I'm content enough to make noises cuebidding given the agreements.  We don't have to always reach slam with keycarding, although it will certainly be tougher to reach grand if that is correct.  I'm not worried about the latter.

The problem isn't about cuebidding vs keycards, the problem is that you may not be able to show a slam try in clubs. The worst scenario is:

1♣-1♥; 3♣-3♦; 3♠ -??

Now I think that 4♣ is non-forcing so you can't sensibly investigate a club slam. I would clarify my intentions as soon as possible so that I would avoid these problems.

[mike777]

It seeems at MP over 3c we must either bid 3nt or force to 6 level. I am unable to ever stop in 4nt.

I guess partner may have:

Qxx...x.....KJx...AKQxxx
or
QTx...x....KJx...AKQxxx

[skjaeran]

jdonn, on Feb 26 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

4♣ then keycard. I'll keep it simple.

Agree.

[Cascade]

han, on Feb 27 2008, 10:56 AM, said:

Quote

or

1♣ - 1♥; 3♣ - 3♦; 3NT - 4♣

This one is clearly a slam try in clubs. Presumably we bid 3D to look for a heart fit, or perhaps a diamond fit.

Or perhaps a spade stopper.

Therein lies the problem with 3♦ partner will have no idea what you are doing.

[Echognome]

Cascade, on Feb 26 2008, 02:09 PM, said:

Therein lies the problem with 3♦ partner will have no idea what you are doing.

That wasn't a problem. We had no idea what we were doing regardless. Maybe I should have just bid 6♣.

[Cascade]

Echognome, on Feb 27 2008, 11:11 AM, said:

Cascade, on Feb 26 2008, 02:09 PM, said:

Therein lies the problem with 3♦ partner will have no idea what you are doing.

That wasn't a problem. We had no idea what we were doing regardless. Maybe I should have just bid 6♣.

I am picking partner would have understood a direct 4♣ better