[enruka]

♠AKQJ7 ♥6 ♦AT4 ♣JT85 ,P P 1S 2H X(Nagetive Dbl 8/10hcp) p ?
what is you rebid:)

[luke warm]

i kinda like 3♥.. my hand reevaluates to 'bout 18, 19 hcp... maybe pard has a heart stopper, if not i might take a shot at 5 minor

[luis]

3♣, what else?

[inquiry]

Does anyone extend good/bad 2NT to this auction? I think this is highly non-standard treatment after this negative double, but it is where with weak hand and a minor suit over this negative double you bid 2NT and either pass partner's 3♣ or correct to 3♦, with game forcing hand you do something dramatic including 2NT followed by cue-bid or immediate cue bid? And a direct bid of three of minor shows extra values but not enough to force?

Thus, a bid at the three level is 'good'. 2NT forces the player who doubled to bid 3. Now the opener can pass or bid a higher suit to show a 'bad' hand? Note, using this interpetation of 2NT as good/bad, you don't have to take a flyer here forcing to 4♠ or 5♣. If you partner is on top of his negative double, he will bid again. So you stop in 3♣ when right, and you bid on to 3NT, 4♠ and 5♣ most of the time when it is right and never when it is really wrong.

But playing this convention or not, I would bid 3♣ with this hand.

[Free]

In IMPS I'm more ambitious, I'll bid 4♥ splinter... But otherwise I'll bid 3♣ (not giving up 3NT).

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Mar 2 2004, 12:28 PM, said:

Does anyone extend good/bad 2NT to this auction? I think this is highly non-standard treatment after this negative double, but it is where with weak hand and a minor suit over this negative double you bid 2NT and either pass partner's 3♣ or correct to 3♦, with game forcing hand you do something dramatic including 2NT followed by cue-bid or immediate cue bid? And a direct bid of three of minor shows extra values but not enough to force?

Thus, a bid at the three level is 'good'. 2NT forces the player who doubled to bid 3. Now the opener can pass or bid a higher suit to show a 'bad' hand? Note, using this interpetation of 2NT as good/bad, you don't have to take a flyer here forcing to 4♠ or 5♣. If you partner is on top of his negative double, he will bid again. So you stop in 3♣ when right, and you bid on to 3NT, 4♠ and 5♣ most of the time when it is right and never when it is really wrong.

But playing this convention or not, I would bid 3♣ with this hand.

Not sure if it is logical to play good/bad 2n here. with
S: AKQXX
H: KJXX
D: XX
C: XX

you really want to play 2n as natural. Your heart is in front of the 2H bidder.

[flytoox]

enruka, on Mar 2 2004, 03:34 AM, said:

♠AKQJ7 ♥6 ♦AT4 ♣JT85 ,P P 1S 2H X(Nagetive Dbl 8/10hcp) p ?
what is you rebid:)

I will bid 4c. I dont mind pd raise to 5 if he has a bit extra. 3c a bit conservative, 3h is bit too much.

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Mar 3 2004, 12:20 PM, said:

Not sure if it is logical to play good/bad 2n here. with
S: AKQXX
H: KJXX
D: XX
C: XX

you really want to play 2n as natural. Your heart is in front of the 2H bidder.

If I held that hand, and if I played 2NT here as natural, I still wouldn't bid 2NT. I would bid 2♠. Stregnthen the hand a little, say add a minor suit honor and a heart spot like the 8 or 9 (♠AKQxx ♥KJ8x ♦Qx ♣xx), and I will pass the negative double as long as partner can not have 3 card support to use it.

Go back and find the hand where you 1) had their suit at the two level without enough to bid 3NT or make a penalty pass, and 2) You had no easy rebid (like 2♠ on this hand), and 3) where you actually bid 2NT as natural weak. I suspect you will find that a good/bad 2NT to separate yuck 3♣ rebids from meaty, but not GF 3♣ might be a better use of 2NT. For instance in your other reply, you complained that "3♥ is a bit too much", but that "3♣ (is) a bit conservative". This is exactly the hand where a "good 3♣ bid" comes to your rescue. You bid 3♣ and your partner knows you can envision game opposite some good minimum hands if he has a nice ♣ fit.

Now with just such a hand, he might raise anyway, in case you have a hand like this, but if he does and you have a really weak, weak hand with some ♣ you are down a couple, and likely doubled. Better to separate the mild game tries from the very weak hands through use of a nearly otherwise useless 2NT rebid anyway. At least imho.

ben

[luke warm]

flytoox, on Mar 3 2004, 07:22 PM, said:

enruka, on Mar 2 2004, 03:34 AM, said:

♠AKQJ7 ♥6 ♦AT4 ♣JT85 ,P P 1S 2H X(Nagetive Dbl 8/10hcp) p ?
what is you rebid:)

I will bid 4c. I dont mind pd raise to 5 if he has a bit extra. 3c a bit conservative, 3h is bit too much.

ok, i'm sure not gonna argue that 3♥ is the right bid, but do you really want to give up on 3nt so soon? if not, how do you go about finding if it's possible?

[inquiry]

luke warm, on Mar 3 2004, 07:15 PM, said:

flytoox, on Mar 3 2004, 07:22 PM, said:

enruka, on Mar 2 2004, 03:34 AM, said:

♠AKQJ7 ♥6 ♦AT4 ♣JT85 ,P P 1S 2H X(Nagetive Dbl 8/10hcp) p ?
what is you rebid:)

I will bid 4c. I dont mind pd raise to 5 if he has a bit extra. 3c a bit conservative, 3h is bit too much.

ok, i'm sure not gonna argue that 3♥ is the right bid, but do you really want to give up on 3nt so soon? if not, how do you go about finding if it's possible?

By bidding 3♣ to show a GOOD hand. If your partner is on top of negative double, with ♥ stopper nothing stops him from making a game try or bidding 3NT himself... all this is possible if 3♣ can not include the yucky hands....

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben!

Spoiler

------

I agree about G/B2NT and 3♣ to show possible game. Life is more easy while bidding, if you agree with partner, that any non jump 2NT as response to his bid is lebensohl/rubenshol/gb2nt/scrambling/minicuebid/transher ♣ instead of natural meaning of bid. It is no chance so many 2NT conventons already exist, the metter of time somebody to make generalization, why not we Ben ? .

Spoiler

---------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[flytoox]

luke warm, on Mar 4 2004, 12:15 AM, said:

flytoox, on Mar 3 2004, 07:22 PM, said:

enruka, on Mar 2 2004, 03:34 AM, said:

♠AKQJ7 ♥6 ♦AT4 ♣JT85 ,P P 1S 2H X(Nagetive Dbl 8/10hcp) p ?
what is you rebid:)

I will bid 4c. I dont mind pd raise to 5 if he has a bit extra. 3c a bit conservative, 3h is bit too much.

ok, i'm sure not gonna argue that 3♥ is the right bid, but do you really want to give up on 3nt so soon? if not, how do you go about finding if it's possible?

I think 3N is not playable, otherwise, pd should bid 2n or 3N rather than dbl. his neg dbl shold deny stopper in 1s-2h-x sequence. There is no major unbid, only game is 3nt or 5m, so if he has stopper, he should consider your problem and then bid nt whenever possible. with good h, he should pass, hoping you reopen with dbl. with modest h, he will bid nt. with small h but good minor, he dbl.


I also considered 3h, but i think 3h is gf. If 3h is f1 only, then i will bid 3h too.

[inquiry]

mishovnbg, on Mar 4 2004, 05:23 AM, said:

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben!

Spoiler

------

I agree about G/B2NT and 3♣ to show possible game. Life is more easy while bidding, if you agree with partner, that any non jump 2NT as response to his bid is lebensohl/rubenshol/gb2nt/scrambling/minicuebid/transher ♣ instead of natural meaning of bid. It is no chance so many 2NT conventons already exist, the metter of time somebody to make generalization, why not we Ben ? .

Spoiler

---------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

Ok Misho... But I must note that there is one huge problem with bidding 2NT, and that is if you partner has a good hand with ♥ stuff, you have just wrong-sided the 3NT contract. The suggestion would be after a two level overcall, if you have a good hand (enough to force to game opposite a weak hand) and their suit stopped, you DONT use a negative double... then this problem goes away. Bid 3NT straight away or make a new suit forcing bid.

Ben

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Mar 4 2004, 08:27 AM, said:

luke warm, on Mar 4 2004, 12:15 AM, said:

flytoox, on Mar 3 2004, 07:22 PM, said:

enruka, on Mar 2 2004, 03:34 AM, said:

♠AKQJ7 ♥6 ♦AT4 ♣JT85 ,P P 1S 2H X(Nagetive Dbl 8/10hcp) p ?
what is you rebid:)

I will bid 4c. I dont mind pd raise to 5 if he has a bit extra. 3c a bit conservative, 3h is bit too much.

ok, i'm sure not gonna argue that 3♥ is the right bid, but do you really want to give up on 3nt so soon? if not, how do you go about finding if it's possible?

I think 3N is not playable, otherwise, pd should bid 2n or 3N rather than dbl. his neg dbl shold deny stopper in 1s-2h-x sequence. There is no major unbid, only game is 3nt or 5m, so if he has stopper, he should consider your problem and then bid nt whenever possible. with good h, he should pass, hoping you reopen with dbl. with modest h, he will bid nt. with small h but good minor, he dbl.

I also considered 3h, but i think 3h is gf. If 3h is f1 only, then i will bid 3h too.

Hi Fly,

Modern competitive bidding methods suggest that this auction:
1♠-(2♥)-2NT

The 2NT bid shows a sound raise to 3♠. So playing that, you can't bid 2NT with ♥ stoppers and invintational stregth. Of course, this is a good thing, because if you are long in ♥ with invite stregth, you can pass and when your partner reopens with a double, you can pass again, a point you noted..

Of course with a good hand and ♥ stopped, 3NT is a fine bid.

Ben

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Mar 4 2004, 02:05 PM, said:

Modern competitive bidding methods suggest that this auction:
1♠-(2♥)-2NT

The 2NT bid shows a sound raise to 3♠. So playing that, you can't bid 2NT with ♥ stoppers and invintational stregth. Of course, this is a good thing, because if you are long in ♥ with invite stregth, you can pass and when your partner reopens with a double, you can pass again, a point you noted..


Ben

Ben, if 2N in 1S-(2H)-2N played as 4card raise, does it imply cuebid 3H shows three card raise only? 2N is limited plus or 100%gf?

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Mar 4 2004, 10:27 AM, said:

inquiry, on Mar 4 2004, 02:05 PM, said:

Modern competitive bidding methods suggest that this auction:
1♠-(2♥)-2NT

The 2NT bid shows a sound raise to 3♠. So playing that, you can't bid 2NT with ♥ stoppers and invintational stregth. Of course, this is a good thing, because if you are long in ♥ with invite stregth, you can pass and when your partner reopens with a double, you can pass again, a point you noted.. 


Ben

Ben, if 2N in 1S-(2H)-2N played as 4card raise, does it imply cuebid 3H shows three card raise only? 2N is limited plus or 100%gf?

2NT is "constructive" four card raise or better. It is clearly not game force, but is forcing one round.

3♥ is a mixed raise. It is either 3 or 4 cards, but in a hand with about equal defensive as offensive stregth. Some play 3♥ (or any cue-bid at the three level) ask for 3NT with a stopper however instead of this mixed raise. My personal preference is for the mixed raise,since with no support and no stopper, I could have bid a forcing 3 minor and we can still get to 3NT...

ben

[Trpltrbl]

If my pd had a ♥ stopper I am sure he would have bid 2 NT, since he didn't I am happy I play good/bad NT so I can bid 3♣ showing this type of hand. I fnot playing good/bad NT I will bid 4 ♣, I have a great playing hand with many controls.

Mike

[luke warm]

flytoox, on Mar 4 2004, 05:27 PM, said:

inquiry, on Mar 4 2004, 02:05 PM, said:

Modern competitive bidding methods suggest that this auction:
1♠-(2♥)-2NT

The 2NT bid shows a sound raise to 3♠. So playing that, you can't bid 2NT with ♥ stoppers and invintational stregth. Of course, this is a good thing, because if you are long in ♥ with invite stregth, you can pass and when your partner reopens with a double, you can pass again, a point you noted.. 


Ben

Ben, if 2N in 1S-(2H)-2N played as 4card raise, does it imply cuebid 3H shows three card raise only? 2N is limited plus or 100%gf?

not sure of ben's answers here, but for me 2nt is limit+ with 4 card support and 3♥ shows 3 card support and is forcing to 3♠ only.. so 2nt is unlimited but could be made on 11 hcp (with 4 trumps of course)

[bearmum]

3♣ - can't see anything else better