[Apollo81]

♠A1052
♥J5
♦1085
♣AK54

W/W imps

(1♣)-1♠-(p)-??

Along with the standard options you have 2NT = 4-card limit (edit: or better) raise and 3♣ = 4 card mixed raise.

[TimG]

2NT seems to be an accurate description.

[Apollo81]

I guess I should clarify

1. whats your first call
2. whats your plan over possible subsequent calls by pard (like a signoff)

[han]

If 2NT shows a limit raise then that's a gross underbid. If it shows a limit raise or better than that's perfect.

[Apollo81]

han, on Feb 21 2008, 03:51 PM, said:

If 2NT shows a limit raise then that's a gross underbid. If it shows a limit raise or better than that's perfect.

fixed my post

[han]

OK, then, 2NT is perfect. I will respect a sign off but will force to game (at least) over anything else.

Partner should not sign off with anything resembling an opening bid.

[Halo]

Why can't I just bid 2C and give myself some space.

[hrothgar]

I think that this hand evaluates as a limit raise

1. Partner overcalled. If partner had opened, this is an obvious game force. However, I'm not going to hang partner for a 1♠ overcall.

2. The AK of Clubs is nice, but I'd rather have my points arranged a bit differently. I'd be much more excited about

♠ AT52
♥ T85
♦ AK54
♣ J5

I'm content to bid a simple 2NT. I'll be more than happy to coperate with most any game try...

[655321]

han, on Feb 21 2008, 03:54 PM, said:

OK, then, 2NT is perfect. I will respect a sign off but will force to game (at least) over anything else.

Partner should not sign off with anything resembling an opening bid.

Agree with this.

[rbforster]

nm... 2N seems fine

[pclayton]

2N seems fine, but its better than a limit raise.

[Apollo81]

all of you 2Ners, is anyone raising to game if pard signs off?

[helene_t]

Han, sorry but I don't understand.

You say a limit bid is a gross underbid but also that you will respect a sign off. Isn't the definition of a limit bid that you have values to the 3-level opposite a minimum?

Also, opposite the overcalls you and Arend are famous for (and you are even nonvulnerable) I think this hand is pretty far from forcing to game.

[TimG]

helene_t, on Feb 21 2008, 04:25 PM, said:

Han, sorry but I don't understand.

You say a limit bid is a gross underbid but also that you will respect a sign off. Isn't the definition of a limit bid that you have values to the 3-level opposite a minimum?

Well said.

[han]

Helene has flattered me so I will have to answer. As usual, this is more a question of semantics and I am somewhat disappointed that given my answer, you cannot figure out how I use the words.

When I say "limit raise", I always mean a hand that would be a limit raise opposite an opening hand. Indeed, an crappy overcall plus a limit raise can easily have no play at the 3-level.

Over 2NT, overcaller should know that partner can have more than a limit raise. So overcaller signs off with the total crap that you might expect of us, makes a counter gametry with something close to an opening bid (think attractive 10-count to bad 12-count) and forces to game with a sound opening bid as usual.

If you think that I misuse the words "limit raise", please start a discussion group with TimG.

[hrothgar]

Apollo81, on Feb 22 2008, 12:16 AM, said:

all of you 2Ners, is anyone raising to game if pard signs off?

If partner makes a weak bid - say a 3♠ bid which presumably shows no interest in game - I'll pass.

If partner makes virtually any game try, I'll cooperate

[hrothgar]

han, on Feb 22 2008, 12:51 AM, said:

Helene has flattered me so I will have to answer. As usual, this is more a question of semantics and I am somewhat disappointed that given my answer, you cannot figure out how I use the words.

When I say "limit raise", I always mean a hand that would be a limit raise opposite an opening hand. Indeed, an crappy overcall plus a limit raise can easily have no play at the 3-level.

Over 2NT, overcaller should know that partner can have more than a limit raise. So overcaller signs off with the total crap that you might expect of us, makes a counter gametry with something close to an opening bid (think attractive 10-count to bad 12-count) and forces to game with a sound opening bid as usual.

If you think that I misuse the words "limit raise", please start a discussion group with TimG.

For the record, when I describe this hand as a "limit raise" I mean that I have game invitational values opposite an overcall.

I believe that this this hand is worth a game force opposite a sound 1♠ opening

[Yogeshdg]

Apollo81, on Feb 21 2008, 04:16 PM, said:

all of you 2Ners, is anyone raising to game if pard signs off?

No. If partner signs off respect his decision and pass. You dont have more than what you promised.

[kenrexford]

Apollo81, on Feb 21 2008, 03:51 PM, said:

I guess I should clarify

1. whats your first call
2. whats your plan over possible subsequent calls by pard (like a signoff)

1. My first call, if 2NT shows a four-peice limit raise or better, with a four-piece limit raise or better and no stiffs, seems obvious. 2NT. My hand of ♠A1052 ♥J5 ♦1085 ♣AK54 qualifies.

2. Plan over subsequent calls from partner?

I'll assume, because W/W at IMPs, that partner's parameters for his initial call are (1) not appropriate for a weak jump of 2♠, (2) somewhat sound, meaning an embarassing opening up to a gotta-double-first hand, (3) usually not 5-5 majors, and (4) possibly a 4-bagger.

Uncontested first:
a. if partner bids 3♣, I think this is normally a natural game try, which seems odd but possible. Opener is allowed to have a cruddy xxx in clubs. That makes the spade situation hairy, though. I also expect that partner may even have 4♠/5♣. Strange, but plausible. I think I have to accept this game try, though. Just to be sure I'm on the same page, I'll raise to 4♣.
b. if partner bids 3♦, I'll punt back 3♥. I'm prepared to cue 4♣ if partner bids 3NT.
c. if partner bids 3♥, I'll want to punt back, but I cannot. So, I'll just bid 4♠.
d. if partner bids 3♠, I'll pass.
e. if partner bids 3NT, he has made a call I don't recognize. Any guess is impossible because of my clubs. So, I hope he does not do this.
f. if partner bids 4♣, I hate my hand and sign off.
g. if partner bids 4♦, I'll last train 4♥.
h. if partner bids 4♥, I'll last train 4♠. Meaning, I'll sign off unless partner bids 5♦ next.
i. if partner bids 4♠, I'll say "good luck partner" and put my hand down.
j. if partner bids anything higher, I'll answer gis question.

Contested:
k. if partner free bids 3♠ because he can, I'll pass.
l. if partner makes an encouraging pass, I'll punt if I can, accept if I cannot.
m. if partner doubles anything, I'll collect +800 or more.
n. if partner cannot bid 3♠, and doubles, I sit.
o. if partner cannot bid 3♠ and passes, I double.
p. if partner makes some weird, delayed slam try, tell me what it is, and in what context, and I'll say what I'll do.

I think that covers most of it.