[Poky]

Scoring: IMP

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1♥ - pa - 2♥ - Dbl
4♥ - pa - pa - ???

What is the best bid and why?

Ty, Poky

[inquiry]

The best bid here is a second double, which is again for takeout.

As a rule, I don't like making a high level double with a void in their suit since partner tends to pass with balanced yuck and three cards or more in their suit (yes it is takeout, but he will be thinking law or total tricks). But on the otherhand, maybe partner is stacked in hearts, and if so, he is just waiting for my reopening double.

If partner doesn't have 4+♥'s we will have a fit somewhere. Even if I catch him with a horrible hand like... ♠xx ♥xxx ♦xxxxx ♣xxx we will make 5♦ if diamonds are split 2-2, and are down only one if not. Also if he has this hand, and chooses to pass 4♥ he will lead a ♠ and we have a chance to win 1♠ + 2♣ + 1♦, or 2♠, 1♦, 1♣

[Free]

Since they are V and we are not, a Dbl is obliged imo. If you'd somehow miss slam they'll go down a lot so you'll recover the points. If you only have game, they'll still go -2 or more. If partner for some reason would bid, we'll also probably make our contract...

[luis]

4s. Should have a play opposite three small cards and very few values.
It's only a bad bid when 4s goes down and 4h wasn't making but it's 2 to 1 better than pass or double imho.

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi all!
I will start to guess - unavoidable at such level. My opps are in vul and if they didn't lose their mainds yet at least the opener had nice distribution to made jump bid. Is his hand 1 suiter or 2 suiter? Because lack of hcp and was not opened 4♥/4♣ I guess he had a 2 suiter. Which is secnd suit of declarer? Probably ♦, because with empty second suit is not attractive for direct bidding of game. What about 2♥ raise? I worry about simple raise instead of preemtive raise. There are three possibilities: 1. lack of hcp; 2. lack of distribution; 3. lack of 4 cards fit. Iguess 1+2 - to bid directly game opener probably had intermediate hand and I have void in their suit. Most horrible for aggressive bidding is 3, but unlikeable, because instead of direct raise of 2 responder could go through 1NT with few hcp. About all 4 hands guessing mr Hristo Drumev (recently world champion for seniors and many times national champion) share with me his opinion: "If you have unbalanced hand there are two more unbalanced in board, but one is relative balanced". I guess in this board hand 2♥ bidder was with relative balanced hand.
Final guessing:X in this board is not wining contract, because my parner will pass it with his relative balanced hand and probable ♦ shortage, while we can have slam. How I can check it? By my choice - 4NT. After parner's preference of ♣/♠ I will bid 6♣/♠, but after 5♦ I will pass. An interesting bids form my partner are 5♥ or 5NT, very brave bids indeed. I think for them my partner need A♠ and a singleton. 5♥ can be also void in ♥, but I will not expect it. My bid will be 7♣ over 5NT(both minors) and 5NT check about minor over 5♥(♠+minor). If he show ♣ I am again at 7♣, if he bid ♦ I am at 6♠, hoping to discard ♦ on ♣ and will not bid grand of course.
Example of probable distribution:

Scoring: IMP

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By the way, if you begin with meta overcalls 2♥ strong unbalanced hand with ♠ will be easy to X 4♥ later, showing strong hand, because offensive distribution was already shown and give possibility for penalty pass to partner, just in case if opps only joking .

Spoiler

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Misho

[the hog]

Best by far is a second takeout X imho. 4S is a poor bid, which is far too unilateral on the given hand and insulting to partner. I am playable in 3 denominations after all. Second choice is 4N, 3rd choice is pass.

[WGF_Flame]

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2004, 05:01 PM, said:

Best by far is a second takeout X imho. 4S is a poor bid, which is far too unilateral on the given hand and insulting to partner. I am playable in 3 denominations after all. Second choice is 4N, 3rd choice is pass.

I would bid 4sp
4nt and pass are very bad bids, u cant pass when u r so strong and u cant bid 4nt with this spade suit.
double and 4sp are the options u got, the problem with double is that its a bit of laying to yourself, u want a takout double but the chances that p will take it out are really rare, p with 4 and even in case of 3 hearts and 4 spades will expect this to have 16-17 TT and should leave the double even with 4 spades (especially on this vul) therefore doubling wont be good and i better bid 4sp.

[the hog]

He he. Tough luck. What if partner tracks with x xxx Kxx Jxxxx

the chances that p will take it out are really rare, p with 4 and even in case of 3 hearts and 4 spades will expect this to have 16-17 TT and should leave the double even with 4 spades (especially on this vul)

Don't know about your's, but my partners take out takeout doubles unless they have trump tricks. The chance of anyone I play with not bidding 4S with a 4 card S suit is remote to say the least.

[bearmum]

Poky, on Mar 3 2004, 01:44 AM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: E/W Scoring: IMP

♠ KQJ53 ♥   ♦ AT65 ♣ AKQ9

1♥ - pa - 2♥ - Dbl
4♥ - pa - pa - ???

What is the best bid and why?

Ty, Poky

X!! - imo second double shows 18+ and REALLY good S (should b 5 I believe)

IF P passes I will HOPE that we get opps off -2 - if not they get a BIG win

[WGF_Flame]

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2004, 06:02 PM, said:

He he. Tough luck. What if partner tracks with x xxx Kxx Jxxxx

the chances that p will take it out are really rare, p with 4 and even in case of 3 hearts and 4 spades will expect this to have 16-17 TT and should leave the double even with 4 spades (especially on this vul)

Don't know about your's, but my partners take out takeout doubles unless they have trump tricks. The chance of anyone I play with not bidding 4S with a 4 card S suit is remote to say the least.

My partners dont need a trump trick to leave 4h , they play with the Law of TT, leaving high level contracts doesnt have much to do with trump tricks.
i know its hard to accept it, but this is one of the best improvments in the bridge world.

[the hog]

My partners dont need a trump trick to leave 4h , they play with the Law of TT, leaving high level contracts doesnt have much to do with trump tricks.
i know its hard to accept it, but this is one of the best improvments in the bridge world.

I know Ben would probably agree with you on this, and I too think Lott is a useful guide. I have no difficulty at all in accepting that premise. However that is precisely what I think - a useful guide and not written in stone. Too often players use it as a crutch and as a substitute for logical thinking.

Anders Wirgen, Swedish international, has conducted a very detailed study of Lott and has shown that it is innacurate on very many occasions; and I am not just talking about Cohen's "adjustments" here. I am saying in many instances it is just plain wrong. For example, look at the hand I posted re "I expected this to be a pickup". Lott was WAY off on that hand. (I will say more on this hand later, as I am waiting for responses).

Not that any of this has all that much relevance to the hand in question, but it is an interesting theme to follow through. If you are such a lott fan, then X is the only bid to make. Bidding 4S is far too unilateral, as I have stated. You have 3, no make that 4, places to play this if we consider 4HX as one place. By bidding 4S you are effectively removing 3 of those places and also your partner from the equation. That is why I said it is "an insult to partner". I like to involve my partners in the decision making process if my actions are not clear cut. That they are not clear cut on this hand is evidenced by the number of posters, including yourself, who chose X as a possible alternative. That is why I rate the pass, as distasteful as that call is to me, as higher than 4S.

Cheers,
Ron

[inquiry]

Ron is right, I am a big fan of LOTT. If you find some of my earlier post on the subject, you will see that I agree LOTT is a wonderful advancement in competitive bidding. I even paid lip service to the problem of doubling with a void at the four level...as partner might pass with three small.

Having said that, I also agree with Ron that bidding 4♠ puts all your eggs in one spade basket. I see only two options here.. .DBL, or the stronger slam try of 4NT. 4♠ is something I will not bid on this hand.

Ben

[Free]

time for some history of the hand...

[mishovnbg]

[quote name='Poky' date='Mar 2 2004, 02:44 PM']

Scoring: IMP

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Pass because not better [sp]? X with bloody voice/put 2-3 doubles from bidding box? Pass after some thinking? This time 4NT for minors?
[spoiler]---------------------------------------------------------------[/spoiler]Misho

[the hog]

Misho, I don't X now, because I KNOW we are unlikely to make 4S and even more unlikely to make 5 of a minor. I pass, because partner with a singleton H could do nothing.

[Poky]

Free, on Mar 4 2004, 01:33 AM, said:

time for some history of the hand...

This is our history of hand...

Scoring: IMP

4Hx -790

After heart lead and guessing diamonds right.

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[mishovnbg]

The_Hog, on Mar 4 2004, 11:31 AM, said:

Misho, I don't X now, because I KNOW we are unlikely to make 4S and even more unlikely to make 5 of a minor. I pass, because partner with a singleton H could do nothing.

Spoiler

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Hi Ron!

Spoiler

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If you often pass with such hands, your opps will try any likely board on game, some of them making due to luck or mistake in defense and win at the end statistically. I am not yet member of "Red Bridge Cross" and I will double them, unlike in original example. The fact that your partner didn't make free negative bid with shortness in ♥ doesn't mean you don't have game, because you have too many hcp to expect him to bid with 2 J even with 5♠, what to expect with 6♣/♦. I also expect he to pass my second double without good distribution like 5-5 or 6-4. Example of hand:

Scoring: IMP

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Spoiler

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Misho

[inquiry]

mishovnbg, on Mar 4 2004, 05:55 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 4 2004, 11:31 AM, said:

Misho, I don't X now, because I KNOW we are unlikely to make 4S and even more unlikely to make 5 of a minor. I pass, because partner with a singleton H could do nothing.

Spoiler

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Hi Ron!

Spoiler

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If you often pass with such hands, your opps will try any likely board on game, some of them making due to luck or mistake in defense and win at the end statistically. I am not yet member of "Red Bridge Cross" and I will double them, unlike in original example. The fact that your partner didn't make free negative bid with shortness in ♥ doesn't mean you don't have game, because you have too many hcp to expect him to bid with 2 J even with 5♠, what to expect with 6♣/♦. I also expect he to pass my second double without good distribution like 5-5 or 6-4. Example of hand:

Scoring: IMP

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Spoiler

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Misho

I double them with both hands.... :-)

[luis]

Well I double with the second hand and bid 4 spades with the 1st one.
When I have a contract that can be made when pd has 0 and 4333 I don't double, I just bid the contract. That's why I bid 4s in the 1st hand. I know a double sounds elegant but why present my pd with a losing option?

[flytoox]

mishovnbg, on Mar 4 2004, 07:27 AM, said:

Poky, on Mar 2 2004, 02:44 PM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: E/W Scoring: IMP

♠ KQJ53 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td>  </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> AT65 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> AKQ9 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end --> 1♥ - pa - 2♥ - Dbl 4♥ - pa - pa - ??? What is the best bid and why? Ty ♥   Poky Spoiler ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi all "second time doublers" ! What you will bid with:<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> West </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> E/W </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> KQJ ♦ xx ♣ A10xx,AKQx

Pass because not better ♠? X with bloody voice/put 2-3 doubles from bidding box? Pass after some thinking? This time 4NT for minors?

Spoiler

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Misho

This hand is a clear pass i think.

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