[finally17]

mikeh, on Feb 22 2008, 11:48 AM, said:

Quote

I am interested (well, not THAT interested) in knowing what 'benefits' could be said to flow from a belief in a religion.

Being a follower of the dominant regional religion, I'll agree with you that you're not going to understand with the mindset you seem to have, because belief in Christ does not convey health or wealth or create a little vortex around you where your friends and family are rescued from their problems. It doesn't make it easier to get up and go serve soup at the shelter, or write that check to the Red Cross. Or to put on a smile when your boss is being an asshole. It doesn't make you a good person. In short, it ain't advertising the things you're looking to find.

Quote

As for stale arguments such as the charitable works of religious organizations, all I can say is 'hogwash'. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is the largest, and arguably successful altruistic venture in the history of the world, and it is the creature of two secular individuals... I don't know if the Gates are religious, but they sure don't preach god.

Apparently Mr. Gates is a BBO shareholder, something which had slipped my mind, if not my attention completely (a point recently made obvious in another thread). So it's vaguely possible that the following is a dangerous statement, but no matter, I'll happily walk away forever if I have to. It would just prove my point:

I'm so so sick of people talking about how much of a philanthropist Bill Gates is. The man made billions by heading a company whose business practices were unethical and illegal (for propriety's sake I'll make no conjectures about current state, consult anti-trust suits for the historical claim). Not only that, but the main product marketed is a bloated pile of crap, twice as big as it should be and not half as efficient. It's easy to give away boatloads of ill-gotten gains, especially when you retain boatloads. It doesn't make you good. It doesn't mean what you've done is good. It might DO GOOD, but it doesn't make you so.

Furthermore, I don't have #s on the size of his foundation compared to that of the Catholic Church's charitable ventures, but unless you've seen both sets of #s, I would not be so quick to say which is "more successful" (no matter how you're evaluating the question of success). As a point of information, I am not Catholic, and I have serious issues with the Catholic Church, but worldwide they do an awful lot of charity work.

[TimG]

mikeh, on Feb 22 2008, 11:48 AM, said:

TimG, on Feb 20 2008, 10:23 PM, said:

barmar, on Feb 20 2008, 08:06 PM, said:

That's because there's obvious benefits to environmentalism, and the eco-terrorists are a small fringe group.  On the other hand, evangelizing is part of the mainstream of religion.  Religious leaders have enormous power in the world, and many political leaders take advice from their religion.

One could argue that there are obvious benefits to religion, too.

One could argue that the world is flat. One could be indoctrinated into believing the world to be flat. It wouldn't render the world flat.

Maybe I should have said "one could reasonably argue" or some such. But, I think you knew what was meant.

Quote

I am interested (well, not THAT interested) in knowing what 'benefits' could be said to flow from a belief in a religion.

I am NOT saying that a believer doesn't perceive a benefit, but I am suggesting that I find it (so far) impossible to come up with a 'benefit' that is unique to religious belief... a benefit that pertains because of religious belief and that would be unavailable to a non-believer.

I don't think that in order for religion to be beneficial that the benefits have to be unique to religion.

[fred]

finally17, on Feb 22 2008, 11:36 PM, said:

mikeh, on Feb 22 2008, 11:48 AM, said:

Quote

I am interested (well, not THAT interested) in knowing what 'benefits' could be said to flow from a belief in a religion.

Being a follower of the dominant regional religion, I'll agree with you that you're not going to understand with the mindset you seem to have, because belief in Christ does not convey health or wealth or create a little vortex around you where your friends and family are rescued from their problems. It doesn't make it easier to get up and go serve soup at the shelter, or write that check to the Red Cross. Or to put on a smile when your boss is being an asshole. It doesn't make you a good person. In short, it ain't advertising the things you're looking to find.

Quote

As for stale arguments such as the charitable works of religious organizations, all I can say is 'hogwash'. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is the largest, and arguably successful altruistic venture in the history of the world, and it is the creature of two secular individuals... I don't know if the Gates are religious, but they sure don't preach god.

Apparently Mr. Gates is a BBO shareholder, something which had slipped my mind, if not my attention completely (a point recently made obvious in another thread). So it's vaguely possible that the following is a dangerous statement, but no matter, I'll happily walk away forever if I have to. It would just prove my point:

I'm so so sick of people talking about how much of a philanthropist Bill Gates is. The man made billions by heading a company whose business practices were unethical and illegal (for propriety's sake I'll make no conjectures about current state, consult anti-trust suits for the historical claim). Not only that, but the main product marketed is a bloated pile of crap, twice as big as it should be and not half as efficient. It's easy to give away boatloads of ill-gotten gains, especially when you retain boatloads. It doesn't make you good. It doesn't mean what you've done is good. It might DO GOOD, but it doesn't make you so.

Furthermore, I don't have #s on the size of his foundation compared to that of the Catholic Church's charitable ventures, but unless you've seen both sets of #s, I would not be so quick to say which is "more successful" (no matter how you're evaluating the question of success). As a point of information, I am not Catholic, and I have serious issues with the Catholic Church, but worldwide they do an awful lot of charity work.

Let me see if I have this right...

You are willing to forgive the Catholic Church for the centuries of torture, murder, extortion, brainwashing, financing various genocides, and for running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history because "worldwide they do an awful lot of charity work" even though you still have some "serious issues" with them.

That's wonderful but not surprising as I have heard it said that it is considered very Christian to forgive.

But your opinion (which you present as fact) of Bill and Microsoft is that they have done so much evil that Bill should not be forgiven even though he also does "an awful lot of charity work". Let's also leave the tremendous good Bill has done for bridge out of the equation - something that you, as a bridge player, should appreciate even if it pales in importance compared to things like financing genocide and eliminating malaria.

Your issues with Bill and Microsoft must be far beyond "serious" as they have caused you to spew irrational vomit from your keyboard. Maybe you are a former Netscape shareholder or employee?

But really I don't have a problem with you or anyone else making Forums posts that are complete nonsense. The reason I am posting a reply is because I think the manners and taste you exhibit in your post are really poor.

You are a guest here and Bill is one of your hosts.

Besides that, Bill is a member of BBO and we do not like it when *any* of our members are personally attacked via Forums posts.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[cherdano]

fred, on Feb 23 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

You are willing to forgive the Catholic Church for the centuries of torture, murder, extortion, brainwashing, financing various genocides, and for running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history

What are you referring to by "financing various genocides"?

Fred, usually I am all for criticizing the Catholic church, but I think the words "running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history" are a bit over the top.

[finally17]

Quote

Let me see if I have this right...

You don't. Not even close.

My post wasn't remotely complete nonsense. Go ahead and defend your friend, that's perfectly laudable. And I'm sure you have good reason to do so. But take care you don't do many of the things of which you accuse me.

1) I brought up the Catholic Church as rebuttal to the idea of "largest," that's it. I then said I am not Catholic so that it was clear (If I was believed) that I have nothing to gain from defense of the Catholic Church. You name good issues, for the most part.

2) I didn't say that Mr. Gates shouldn't be forgiven. But people bring him up as though the money he donates and the time he spends is so impressive. That's a very small-minded view, which doesn't consider what he has to give. I said "It's easy to give away boatloads of ill-gotten gains, especially when you retain boatloads." Maybe you object to the word "ill-gotten" but surely you don't object to the rest of the concept? It doesn't make him better than anyone else. Perhaps I should have also included "it doesn't make him worse than anyone else." I was refuting the praise, so that wasn't germane. I suppose it was a mistake to leave it out anyway.

3) I present as fact issues of illegality, which is based upon lawsuits by the DOJ and several states, which were won. You know this I am sure, and yet you call my statement opinions. Perhaps you were referring to my claim of "unethical practices." To start with, the legal issues were ethical ones. I could name a host of other ethical issues I have with Microsoft, but I couldn't find "proof" beyond "newspaper X prints Y about Microsoft enforcing issue Z on school district A," which you wouldn't accept despite the countless examples that exist. You also wouldn't accept that if there are enough of these types of "rumors" and "stories," from around the entire country, they probably aren't all false.

4) As for being a member of BBO, he's also a public figure. He's being praised on this thread as a public figure. Not as a bridge player, not as a bridge promoter, but as a public figure. You take an interesting view if you allow a public figure to be praised, but condemn the mention of the flaws. That's what happens when you put yourself in the spotlight, and I for one am not going to sit back and watch someone in that big a spotlight be mindlessly praised without at least presenting the other side.

Let me make this clear: I did not make a personal attack. I made claims backed up by court findings about the actions of a company headed by the very public figure of Mr. Gates. I then said that giving away money does not make a person good.

5) As far as his being "my host" is concerned, well I guess I made it clear recently in another thread we both know you read that I wasn't aware of this until a day or two ago. But I anticipated a mention of the fact, and have no rebuttal for it, except to say that if you honestly expect people to stay mum about a PUBLIC FIGURE they have issues with on a forum like this, you're only fooling yourself, regardless of who is hosting it. I presented NO LIES, I have NOTHING to gain, and I said what I said fully aware that you might respond by cutting me off from BBO. That would be your over-reaction. The fact that he is host isn't going to keep me from rebutting mindless praise.

6) I am not going to fall at someone's feet just because they like the same game I do, and they have money to invest in it's promotion. I care more about the poverty-stricken anywhere, and I'm clearly not falling at his feet over charity work.

7) It's nice to know that you're just as good as most of the rest of us at the following: i) jumping to conclusions based on evidence that isn't there, ii) completely misreading the intent of comments (such as my ones about the Church), iii) mocking a large group of people based on religious belief (if "brainwashing" and your little comment about "forgiveness" isn't mockery I don't know what is), iv) rude and crude language (spewing vomit on my keyboard?), v) implicit accusation of lies. And I'm sure there are other things I'm missing.


And for the record: If my post is to be evaluated as a personal attack on Mr. Gates the public figure, then there is no way yours isn't a personal attack on me. I don't think you have the high ground.

[Al_U_Card]

corporation=religion=domination=suit yourself (six of one half a dozen of the other).

[fred]

cherdano, on Feb 23 2008, 06:50 PM, said:

fred, on Feb 23 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

You are willing to forgive the Catholic Church for the centuries of torture, murder, extortion, brainwashing, financing various genocides, and for running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history

What are you referring to by "financing various genocides"?

Fred, usually I am all for criticizing the Catholic church, but I think the words "running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history" are a bit over the top.

Agree - I could have used less inflammatory language. Sorry to those who were offended.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[y66]

When I make comments like some of the ones I've just read, I find that the temporary insanity defense works best, followed by a nap. Think I'll take one myself.

[kenberg]

I'm going to go out on a twig here. The suggestion was to list books that reveal something of how we think. For better or for worse, my taste in popular fiction may be the most revealing. Some years back, I read Gorky Park. Besides being a good read, it has towards the end a pretty devastating, and I fear rather accurate, critique of American justice as it is actually practiced (This was totally excised from the so-so movie).

I mentioned before the biography of Hamilton. I think realism is in short supply in the world and I am partial towards anything, biography, fiction, what have you, that presents characters that address the world in ways that I find to be respectful of the world as it actually is.

And (not so subtle prod) I am hoping this thread gets back to its very interesting original purpose.

I'll try to come up with something a little more highbrow for a future post.

[sceptic]

fred, on Feb 23 2008, 08:07 PM, said:

cherdano, on Feb 23 2008, 06:50 PM, said:

fred, on Feb 23 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

You are willing to forgive the Catholic Church for the centuries of torture, murder, extortion, brainwashing, financing various genocides, and for running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history

What are you referring to by "financing various genocides"?

Fred, usually I am all for criticizing the Catholic church,

Agree - I could have used less inflammatory language. Sorry to those who were offended.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Quote

but I think the words "running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history" are a bit over the top.

bet you cant name a bigger one?

[sceptic]

Quote

What are you referring to by "financing various genocides"?

Fred, usually I am all for criticizing the Catholic church,

Does that mean he hit the nail on the head for the rest of the statement?

[finally17]

kenberg, on Feb 23 2008, 03:28 PM, said:

And (not so subtle prod) I am hoping this thread gets back to its very interesting original purpose.

A fellow BBOer recommended reading some Andre Dubus to me some time ago. He wrote the short story that became the noted Marisa Tomei movie "In the Bedroom." Well, I checked out a collection of essays he wrote entitled "Meditations from a Moveable Chair;" very well-written, thought-provoking, and at times heart-wrenching. But a couple stand out, in particular:

"A Country Road Song," which offers a beautifully written perspective on being grateful in the face of personal suffering (he spent the last several years of his life a paraplegic from a car accident). In particular, the final paragraph:

Quote

I mourn this, and I sing in gratitude for loving this, and in gratitude for all the roads I ran on and walked on, for the hills I climbed and descended, for trees and grass and sky, and for being spared losing running and walking sooner than I did: ten years sooner, or eight seasons, or three; or one day.

[mike777]

"Let me see if I have this right...

You are willing to forgive the Catholic Church for the centuries of torture, murder, extortion, brainwashing, financing various genocides, and for running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history because "worldwide they do an awful lot of charity work" even though you still have some "serious issues" with them.

That's wonderful but not surprising as I have heard it said that it is considered very Christian to forgive."



It is fair to say the Catholic Church is based on GRACE, undeserved forgiveness. You might say this is a cornerstone of the Christian faith.

We (me) Catholics certainly good do a better job.

[helene_t]

I liked Flowers for Algernon. Decent plot but abowe all were several (well two) of the characters very recognizable.

[luke warm]

all of cs lewis' non-fiction
by greg bahnsen: pushing the antithesis; theonomy in christian ethics
by alvin plantinga: knowledge and reality: essays in honor; contemporary philosophy in focus

helene_t, on Feb 19 2008, 06:47 PM, said:

It is impossible to compare that book to his scientific books. The God Delusion is a popular book. I find it quite informative.

you are right, helene... dawkins' scientific books are excellent, his philosophical ones not quite so

kenberg, on Feb 19 2008, 06:15 PM, said:

Appreciating that it is easier to be negative than positive, I can't imagine myself ever reading a book titled "The God Delusion".  The writer's point seems to be summarized in the title. I gather he believes God doesn't exist. I agree. I lack a feeling of excitement here.

An interesting situation. Believers won't read this because they are insulted by having their beliefs called a delusion. Non-believers won't read it because it's boring to read something you already agree with. Has this book sold a lot of copies?

i read the book and found it illogical on many levels... his main gist seems to be that God doesn't exist because of the complexity of the proposition... this is one reason his scientific books are of far more value than this type, where he attempts to make logical or philosophical points

it's true that the invalidity of an argument doesn't of necessity make the argument false, but it's just as true that in makes the argument unconvincing... his main philosophical shortcoming, imo, is his reliance on naturalism in making his case

fred, on Feb 23 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

~~ and most successful pedophilia ring in history ~~

and i especially find the defense, as voiced by the priest to nicholson in 'the departed' to be offensive "i am as God made me" ... pure tripe

[helene_t]

Maybe off-topic, but here is a book I don't like:

Peter Woit: Not even wrong.

I thought his position - that string theory is unscientific - sounded intriguing and would like to know whether I agree with him or not. But the book is an annoying read. Endless stream of boring facts. As if the author needs to show off his literacy by mentioning all the irrelevant facts he happens to know. In general I like books with lots of facts but they must be presented in a way that is either:
- creating an overview
- inspiring thoughts and questions
- contributing to some kind of point
- entertaining.

In this case they are neither.

I'm aware I can have the same tendency myself, but a better write should not have this problem.

[Patapon]

fred, on Feb 23 2008, 05:51 PM, said:

Quote

You are willing to forgive the Catholic Church for the centuries of torture, murder, extortion, brainwashing, financing various genocides, and for running the biggest and most successful pedophilia ring in history because "worldwide they do an awful lot of charity work" even though you still have some "serious issues" with them.

That's wonderful but not surprising as I have heard it said that it is considered very Christian to forgive.

I don’t understand the comparison between Bill Gates and the Catholic Church centuries of exactions.

Of course I forgive to the Church the exactions she did centuries ago as I forgive to the Azteque people the human sacrifices they made.

Not forgiven is about as hold it against a tsunami I think…

[y66]

I enjoyed reading Snow by Orhan Pamuk. I don't believe entirely what Fazil says at the end -- "If you write a book set in Kars and put me in it, I'd like to tell your readers not to believe anything you say about any of us. No one could understand us from so far away." -- in spite of obvious, massive evidence that we all have tremendous difficulty understanding others who are not like us.

I like T.S. Eliot's idea in Four Quartets that "we are only undefeated because we go on trying". A lot of good stuff in there.

So, I guess I'm something of an optimistic. Think this is a plus for bridge.

[helene_t]

I'm very bad at reading fiction and biographies, they need to be extremely exiting to keep me awake. Here are some titles I like:
- La casa de los espiritus (I read the Danish translation)
- Il nome della rosa (the Danish translation)
- Les mots pour le dire. (I don't really believe in psychoanalysis but maybe just therefore it is interesting to read about a patient's positive experiences)
- Die Eisheiligen (Hekla Novak). This is actually an autobiography but for some reason pretends to be a novel. Novak was born in Germany just before WW II. She describes her life during the war and the Soviet occupation.
- Silent voices / The good women of China. This is a choking collection of portraits of women who called a radio journalist to tell there story on the air. These women experienced the most unbelievable things. One incest victim took an extreme measure to avoid being raped by her father for the umpteenth time. (Not disclosing the details in case someone might wanna read). In one village some 2/3 of the children seen on street were boys, and the author obviously had a gruesome thought about why that might be. It turned out te be for a reason she wasn't able to imagine ....

[sceptic]

Quote

Of course I forgive to the Church the exactions she did centuries ago as I forgive to the Azteque people the human sacrifices they made.

Have you forgiven them for the recent ones as well?

and did you really forgive the Aztecs, at what point in your life did you conciously actually forgive the Aztecs. I would say you never actuially forgave them, you just made it up as an example to highlight a point

which then beggars me to think you never actaully conciously forgave the church either


which then makes me think your post is not valid