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Yesterday it was announced that we have to use Stop Cards at the club. I have never used a Stop Card and I know it will be confusing for me to start, sometimes I will remember, other times I will forget. Is the use of this card mandatory? I have played bridge for 10 years, and never used the stop card nor did anyone at the club where I learned to play. Thanks for your input
Stop Card Is this mandatory at duplicate clubs
#2
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Posted 2008-February-06, 13:23
I believe a club (in ACBL land) is free to impose such rules as mandatory stop card usage. You'll likely find that there are some players who will never be able to get used to using the stop card in an auction like 1N-3N.
#3
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Posted 2008-February-06, 15:52
Yeah, and of course it's never useful in auctions like 1NT-3NT...
Except one time, when I held AKQTxxx xxx x xx. No, I didn't play "double=spades". The vulnerability was such that if I didn't get a spade lead, they were making, and if I didn't get a trick from partner, 4Sx was one too many.
Yeah, I took my entire 10 seconds thinking. I put pass on the table. The opponents did say that if my partner had found a spade lead they would have had a problem. And with 99% of the world, they would and should have. When I reminded them that I pause after *every* skip bid (they both knew me well), they said "yeah, you're right, you do. You might be the only one who would get away with that one."
The ACBL regulation (for tournaments under their jurisdiction) is that you either use it all the time or avoid it all the time. As Tim said, clubs sanctioned by the ACBL are allowed to have their own policies. I use it all the time - explicitly including 1NT-3NT and ...4NT-<response>-6 (or 7) NT. But I have been described as somewhat anal-retentive(*). On the other hand, when it comes to both looking and being above board, that isn't a bad thing to be...
Michael.
(*)Yes, the dash is required, to reference the old joke.
Except one time, when I held AKQTxxx xxx x xx. No, I didn't play "double=spades". The vulnerability was such that if I didn't get a spade lead, they were making, and if I didn't get a trick from partner, 4Sx was one too many.
Yeah, I took my entire 10 seconds thinking. I put pass on the table. The opponents did say that if my partner had found a spade lead they would have had a problem. And with 99% of the world, they would and should have. When I reminded them that I pause after *every* skip bid (they both knew me well), they said "yeah, you're right, you do. You might be the only one who would get away with that one."
The ACBL regulation (for tournaments under their jurisdiction) is that you either use it all the time or avoid it all the time. As Tim said, clubs sanctioned by the ACBL are allowed to have their own policies. I use it all the time - explicitly including 1NT-3NT and ...4NT-<response>-6 (or 7) NT. But I have been described as somewhat anal-retentive(*). On the other hand, when it comes to both looking and being above board, that isn't a bad thing to be...
Michael.
(*)Yes, the dash is required, to reference the old joke.
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#4
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Posted 2008-February-06, 17:00
Clubs are, under the current laws, Sponsoring Organizations, and so have full power to require the use of stop cards. So far as I know, that is true everywhere - and I would question the legality of some NBO or Zonal Authority making it untrue.
If a pair who bid to 3NT called me as TD in the scenario Michael posits, I would rule no infraction. The obligation to pause exists whether the stop card is used or not. I might or might not so rule if the player sometimes pauses and sometimes not, or never does. It would require further investigation.
If a pair who bid to 3NT called me as TD in the scenario Michael posits, I would rule no infraction. The obligation to pause exists whether the stop card is used or not. I might or might not so rule if the player sometimes pauses and sometimes not, or never does. It would require further investigation.
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#5
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Posted 2008-February-10, 21:10
The card is used always or never. It doesn't matter if the bid is strong or weak. I used to be always and the last 3 years have switched to never. You still have to wait 10 seconds whether to make a bid or pass or double.
#6
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Posted 2008-February-10, 21:54
tbr, on Feb 10 2008, 10:10 PM, said:
The card is used always or never. It doesn't matter if the bid is strong or weak. I used to be always and the last 3 years have switched to never. You still have to wait 10 seconds whether to make a bid or pass or double.
anyone call a director when an opponent bids almost immediately after a jump bid?
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Posted 2008-February-10, 22:38
matmat, on Feb 10 2008, 10:54 PM, said:
tbr, on Feb 10 2008, 10:10 PM, said:
The card is used always or never. It doesn't matter if the bid is strong or weak. I used to be always and the last 3 years have switched to never. You still have to wait 10 seconds whether to make a bid or pass or double.
anyone call a director when an opponent bids almost immediately after a jump bid?
Yes, but only when the other opponent made a bid. Usually I'll just ask if everyone agrees the pass was quick (or too slow, more frequently), and if it looks like there was an LA, I'll call the director.
#8
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Posted 2008-February-11, 03:30
mycroft, on Feb 6 2008, 11:52 PM, said:
The opponents did say that if my partner had found a spade lead they would have had a problem. And with 99% of the world, they would and should have. When I reminded them that I pause after *every* skip bid (they both knew me well), they said "yeah, you're right, you do. You might be the only one who would get away with that one."
Rather they might call the TD if p does not lead his shortest major after a 1NT-3NT auction followed by a fast pass.
What they are saying is that because most people do not follow the rules, it conveys information about something unusual if someone does follow the rules.
Besides the whole issue was inflicted by themselves because they did not use the stop card. If it is evident that there is UI and it is evident that p used that UI, ok. But the 3NT bidders must have the burden of proof.
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#9
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Posted 2008-February-11, 09:49
I think it may depend on how the regulation is worded. Here (ACBL) the regulation clearly states that the LHO of a skip bidder is obligated to pause for ten seconds, stop card or no stop card. So here, at least, you can't put the "burden of proof" on the declaring side.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
Our ultimate goal on defense is to know by trick two or three everyone's hand at the table. -- Mike777
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
Our ultimate goal on defense is to know by trick two or three everyone's hand at the table. -- Mike777
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#10
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Posted 2008-February-11, 13:23
And lots of players routinely refuse to pause regardless of whether the stop card is used. The problem is so rampant, in my experience, that I consider it futile to call attention to it. Most of these players are set in their ways, so no amount of complaining is likely to solve the problem.
#11 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-February-11, 15:43
I never use it, I would not play at a club that imposed this rule.
#12
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Posted 2008-February-11, 15:46
Ever since Nashville when we played a team that varied their tempo a lot I have used it.
In auctions like 1N - 3N I just pull it away faster
In auctions like 1N - 3N I just pull it away faster
"Phil" on BBO
#13 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-February-11, 16:51
It is impractical to wait 10 seconds every time the auction goes 1N p 3N.
The whole thing is your tempo should be the SAME always. The arbitrary 10 second rule is silly, some auctions should have a much faster tempo. Why is 2N p 3N not a 10 second tank but 1N p 3N is a 10 second tank? That is completely silly. Why would you break tempo with 7 spades to the AKQT, you have an easy double.
The whole altruistic "but I ALWAYS take 10 seconds" thing is very annoying to me, you are just slowing down the game 99 % of the time so that you protect yourself the 1 % of the time you may need to consider bidding. If you have a hand where you want to bid just decide quickly, or take your time and bar your partner from finding a genius lead. If you are a slow player and cannot figure these things out quickly then pass slowly with your 7 solid and expect partner not to find the lead. He would not be finding the lead if you passed in tempo anyways, so you haven't lost anything.
Mycroft do you think for 10 seconds after 2N p 3N as well? Do you always think for 10 seconds? I would find that annoying. If everyone played at that tempo the game would take forever.
Just because some people are so slow that they need 10 seconds for every bid does not mean that I am so slow that I need 10 seconds for every bid. I think I do a very good job of rarely breaking tempo, and I don't think I've ever thought for 10 seconds about a bid where partner could be in position to take advantage of UI. If it is a slam hand and I have to sign off or not sign off I will always take about 5 seconds and if I need more time than that to think then I will just make up my mind after 5 seconds.
I will never use the stop card and tell my opps what their normal tempo should be. That is personal and I trust them to make up their own minds. If they hesitate I will trust their partner not to take advantage. If they do take advantage I will call the director.
The whole thing is your tempo should be the SAME always. The arbitrary 10 second rule is silly, some auctions should have a much faster tempo. Why is 2N p 3N not a 10 second tank but 1N p 3N is a 10 second tank? That is completely silly. Why would you break tempo with 7 spades to the AKQT, you have an easy double.
The whole altruistic "but I ALWAYS take 10 seconds" thing is very annoying to me, you are just slowing down the game 99 % of the time so that you protect yourself the 1 % of the time you may need to consider bidding. If you have a hand where you want to bid just decide quickly, or take your time and bar your partner from finding a genius lead. If you are a slow player and cannot figure these things out quickly then pass slowly with your 7 solid and expect partner not to find the lead. He would not be finding the lead if you passed in tempo anyways, so you haven't lost anything.
Mycroft do you think for 10 seconds after 2N p 3N as well? Do you always think for 10 seconds? I would find that annoying. If everyone played at that tempo the game would take forever.
Just because some people are so slow that they need 10 seconds for every bid does not mean that I am so slow that I need 10 seconds for every bid. I think I do a very good job of rarely breaking tempo, and I don't think I've ever thought for 10 seconds about a bid where partner could be in position to take advantage of UI. If it is a slam hand and I have to sign off or not sign off I will always take about 5 seconds and if I need more time than that to think then I will just make up my mind after 5 seconds.
I will never use the stop card and tell my opps what their normal tempo should be. That is personal and I trust them to make up their own minds. If they hesitate I will trust their partner not to take advantage. If they do take advantage I will call the director.
#14
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Posted 2008-February-11, 16:55
I've played against people Justin mentions that always wait 10 seconds.
It's kind of creepy.
It's kind of creepy.
"Phil" on BBO
#15
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Posted 2008-February-11, 17:08
Interesting, Justin, I have to think about it.
Problem is, there are a lot of non-skip-bid situations in which a short tank would be normal and a fast pass would convey information. But for us lesser mortals it is quite difficult to identify those situations. Suppose I spend 8 secs considering what my normal tempo is in this situation, only to come to the conclusion that my normal tempo is 2 secs
The (sometimes silly) automatic skip-bid rule is easy to understand, at least.
Problem is, there are a lot of non-skip-bid situations in which a short tank would be normal and a fast pass would convey information. But for us lesser mortals it is quite difficult to identify those situations. Suppose I spend 8 secs considering what my normal tempo is in this situation, only to come to the conclusion that my normal tempo is 2 secs
The (sometimes silly) automatic skip-bid rule is easy to understand, at least.
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#16 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-February-11, 17:14
helene, I agree that there are a lot of non skip auctions where you should be thinking for some normal amount of time for you (for me 5 seconds, maybe for most people 8 seconds or 10 seconds, for some maybe 3 seconds), and whatever it is it should be the same.
For instance on an auction like 3S 4H 4S I would never pass quickly, even though this is a non skip auction. I think insta passing would be grounds for a director call if the 4H bidder did not reopen X with a goodish hand or whatever.
In general it is obvious when someone took some time or when they didnt.
For instance on an auction like 3S 4H 4S I would never pass quickly, even though this is a non skip auction. I think insta passing would be grounds for a director call if the 4H bidder did not reopen X with a goodish hand or whatever.
In general it is obvious when someone took some time or when they didnt.
#17
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Posted 2008-February-11, 17:29
I used to use it, but it got to the point where I use the alert card and not the skip card anymore.
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#18
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Posted 2008-February-11, 17:31
Jlall, on Feb 11 2008, 05:14 PM, said:
For instance on an auction like 3S 4H 4S I would never pass quickly, even though this is a non skip auction. I think insta passing would be grounds for a director call if the 4H bidder did not reopen X with a goodish hand or whatever.
Have you ever seen a director call based on an instant pass?
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#19 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-February-11, 17:33
cherdano, on Feb 11 2008, 06:31 PM, said:
Jlall, on Feb 11 2008, 05:14 PM, said:
For instance on an auction like 3S 4H 4S I would never pass quickly, even though this is a non skip auction. I think insta passing would be grounds for a director call if the 4H bidder did not reopen X with a goodish hand or whatever.
Have you ever seen a director call based on an instant pass?
Not in this auction, but yes I have seen director calls made for insta passes, and more often insta signoffs.
#20 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-February-11, 17:37
heh, now that I think about it I got a director call on me once for an insta pass after my RHO opened 2S...My RHO was a very good player too and didn't appreciate my fast tempo apparantly 
He said "I will bet that his hand is weak" and my hand was Kxx AQxx Jxx Qxx. I will always bid quickly over a 2S opener, but at that time in my life quickly meant <1 second so I don't blame him for calling director. To me always waiting 3 seconds is more reasonable than waiting 10 seconds every time they open 2S. There will never be a hand where I need more than 3 seconds to think after they open 2S.
He said "I will bet that his hand is weak" and my hand was Kxx AQxx Jxx Qxx. I will always bid quickly over a 2S opener, but at that time in my life quickly meant <1 second so I don't blame him for calling director. To me always waiting 3 seconds is more reasonable than waiting 10 seconds every time they open 2S. There will never be a hand where I need more than 3 seconds to think after they open 2S.