[Cascade]

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ KJ62 ♥ Q87 ♦ KT3 ♣ KQ9

      Pass  Pass  1♦
X     1♥    2♠    Pass
Pass  3♦    Pass  Pass
?

Wayne

[EricK]

I don't bid.

With defensive hands I want to defend.

I wouldn't have doubled in the first place for the same reason. If partner is an intelligent balancer it is hard to construct hands where I need to bid now in order to reach a good contract.

Eric

[Free]

I think you know what's wrong here: your initial Double. Or you pass with this hand, or you bid 1♠ or 1NT. Double is no option imo, because you have a balanced hand, and only want to hear ♠s from your partner.

So if you get yourself into these kind of troubles, you get guessing situations like this one.

I've noticed that I bid a little bit too agressive these days, so I'll pass

[the hog]

I pass. I would have passed originally as well, though the X is certainly not the worst bid in the world. Zia and Rosenberg eg always double on this sort of hand, if you look up their hand records, as do some other top partnerships. This hand looks remarkably familiar.

[inquiry]

The double isn't THAT bad... hehehe. But you will not get me defending it (although I might make the double), i just will not attack it.

I am guided by the Law of total tricks in this situation, so this points a big finger at my parnters 2♠ bid. If your partner can have only 4♠, I pass and don't look back. But if he can have 4♠ you might want to consider the following change to your bidding agreement: in response to a take out double, if your partner has a choice between jumping to 2M or bidding 1M (as was case here), 1M is four cards 0-10 hcp, or five cards very weak 0-5pts. The jump to 2M shows a five card suit and modest value (6 to 10). I got this from ETM victory (boy I steal of ideas from those guys)....

So here, playing this ETM style responses to Takeout DBL, we have a known 9 card fit, so this makes the pass not quite so clear. It is not possible to know their fit, but we have reason to believe it is likely at least 8 cards. So we think there are 17 tricks. If they can make 9 tricks, we are down one in 3♠, if we are taking 9 tricks, they are down one 3♦. The law suggest the following table...

Contract   Tricks....      Result
         US      US      Imps bid/pass
3S     9      +140      bid gains 3 imps
3D     9      +50
3S     8      -50       bid gains 2 imps
3D     8      -110

Now this table makes bidding attractive if it is a 17 trick situation, and if they have a 9 card fit, it suggest maybe bidding even more. Next is there any subtractions from the law here? Well, yes. First the 4333 is a minus, but the spade JACK is a plus. The presences of red suit honors is a minus (good defense, questionable offense). But in final analysis, all in all, if I was certain partner had 5♠ because I play the ETM victory alternative response to takeout doubles, I would bid 3♠ here.

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

I would overcall 1 NT directly, so I won't have this problem. But now that I do have a problem, I would X, to show a max hand, and very interested in defending this. With an unbalanced hand pd will pull and I will bid game. I still think that after 2 ♠ by pd I should bid 3♠, he shows 8-10/11 or so, and I seem to have a nice hand for him.

Mike

[Free]

For me, a 2♠ bid shows only 5+HCP and 4+♠. Since you promissed ♠, he should bid at 2-level right away, to criple opponents bidding. Support double is no option anymore, so a 5-3 fit ♥ might go lost, and that's exactly what we want...

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi all!

Spoiler

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Using meta it is min hand for 1NT overcall. Using normal take out, this is min, not max hand, because lack of A and distribution and X is not good bid, esp with 4 cards fit. Making 3♠ is possible only with perfect cards in p like AQxxx,xxx,xx,Axx, win which case they will go down and playing at imps I no need to fight for score. All my p tend to bid with less than with more, so I will expect they to bid 3♠, instead of 2♠ with such hand. There are more clues, playing with expert partner, like Ben or Boian. They can bid 3♠ as pre-balance bid, with very offensive hand, because they will pull my dbl anyway. If they heave sure 2 def tricks, like hand above, they can double, expecting I to have 3 for pass or pull to 3♠. So they give me an option -to pass, double or bid - all passable. My choice will be to pass at IMP(too risky, despite they will go down probably) and to double at MP.

Spoiler

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Misho

[inquiry]

mishovnbg, on Feb 25 2004, 08:48 AM, said:

Spoiler

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Hi all!

Spoiler

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Using meta it is min hand for 1NT overcall. Using normal take out, this is min, not max hand, because lack of A and distribution and X is not good bid, esp with 4 cards fit. Making 3♠ is possible only with perfect cards in p like AQxxx,xxx,xx,Axx, win which case they will go down and playing at imps I no need to fight for score. All my p tend to bid with less than with more, so I will expect they to bid 3♠, instead of 2♠ with such hand. There are more clues, playing with expert partner, like Ben or Boian. They can bid 3♠ as pre-balance bid, with very offensive hand, because they will pull my dbl anyway. If they heave sure 2 def tricks, like hand above, they can double, expecting I to have 3 for pass or pull to 3♠. So they give me an option -to pass, double or bid - all passable. My choice will be to pass at IMP(too risky, despite they will go down probably) and to double at MP.

Spoiler

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Misho

Misho raises a couple of interesting points.

1) He says he thinks they will go down, but at imps he will not double. This is the same "protection" I think you have if you bid 3♠. They will think you will go down, but they will also be loathe to double at imps. AT MP, they will be quicker to double.

2) He considers what his "expert" partner will do. With a very offensive hand, he expects his partner to have bid 3♠. What this is saying, is if partner had a surprise 6th ♠ or some other offensive natured hand he would have bid on.

However, while he "expects" 3♦ to go down (presumably one for +50), he is willing to take that score, becuase his believe it takes a perfect hand from his partner to make 3♠. I on the other hand believe that a less than perfect hand but with 5♠s might still make 3♠. For instance, partner might have...
♠Axxxx ♥KTx ♦xx ♣xxx and if both aces are right, and if ♠ split 2-2. and if WEST has the ♥J we will make 10 tricks in ♠, against that we collect 1♦, 2♠, 2♣ and 1/2♥ on defense, so +170 to play, +100 to 150 on defense. IF one of the minor suit aces is badly placed (say ♣ACE), we lose 2♣, 1♦ and one ♥ to make, while we collect 2♠, 1♥, 1♦ and 1♣ to beat them one.

This type of analysis is tough to figure out directly in the bidding, this is why I apply the LOTT and go with that (along with correctons). One can come up with many additional hands for partner, like Qxxxx KJxx x xxx, where you can lose 1♠, 1♥, 1♣, and 1♦ (they may get a (♥ ruff as well) to just make, while they might lose just 1♥ and 2♣ to make an overtrick, or 2♣ and 2♥ so both contracts are making.

Misho has said he is not a lott fan, and has posted links to mathematical evaluations of LOTT in the past to show that it is overhyped. I, however, am a quite happy to use LOTT for assistance in positions liek this one, so this difference of opinion between us on this hand is not surprising. IT is this LOTT-based analysis that make me play the ETM-Victory response scale in the first place, with 2M here showing five so that I can make my bid to the three level based upon just this information...do we have a nine card fit or not. This is also the motivation behind my change in my major suit raise structure.

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

If 2♠ shows only 5+ and 4+♠, what does 1♠ mean ? 0-4 and 4♠? Again it seems you try more to interfere with your opps then to let your pd know what you have.

Mike

[mishovnbg]

Sorry Ben, as Boian like to say: "Bridge is concrette game". Statistical methods like LOTT or percentage play can help, but can't be primary weapon for the good Bridge. I am not fan of theese methods, but it doesn't mean I don't use them, just I am not fanatic of any type - this show normally lack of knoledge and education. So I think you are fan only friend, not fanatic and mainly with educational purpose .

Spoiler

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Misho

[mishovnbg]

Trpltrbl, on Feb 25 2004, 04:54 PM, said:

If 2♠ shows only 5+ and 4+♠, what does 1♠ mean ? 0-4 and 4♠? Again it seems you try more to interfere with your opps then to let your pd know what you have.

Mike

Spoiler

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Hi Mike!
This is the way I played with Boian long time:
1♠: 4-7HCP, 5+♠
2♠: 8-11HCP, 5+♠
1NT: 8-11HCP, 4♠
X: 8+HCP, 4+♥
2♥:8-11HCP, 5♥
Note: HCP for free bids can be less if more distribution.
With bal hand we pass and dbl later as optional.

Spoiler

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Misho

[inquiry]

Quote

If 2♠ shows only 5+ and 4+♠, what does 1♠ mean ? 0-4 and 4♠? Again it seems you try more to interfere with your opps then to let your pd know what you have.

Mike 

Mike,

ETM Victory is a complex bidding system meant for only experienced partners as it has many innovatations in it. I would play it, but how am I ever going to get someone to learn it all? But anyway, the complete system can be found at the following link.

http://www.bridgemat...com/victory.htm

The doccument this link points too runs, 211 pages when I print it out. Crammed into those pages are tons of useful treatments well worth considering even if one completely ignores the rest of the system. For instance, I took the Garrazzo 2/3 double from there, my 1M-2NT bidding structure from there, a modified version of something they called gadget from there, the use of top michaels and unusual unusual 2NT from there. In addition, their theories in the section they label "Modified Responses to Takeout Doubles" fits my bidding philopophy perfectly. To read this in their own words, follow the link above and look search for the bolded text above. But basically what it says is that they believe in responsing to a takeout double they use a suit legnth as the deciding factor between jumping to the two level or staying a the one level. This helps distinquish degree of fit (for LOTT calculations, which is why I like it), while remaining low on some good hands without a fit (by not jumping with only 4). Thus, when a jump to the two level is available (with or without furhter competition)

• 1suit = 0 to 10 with 4 card suit, or 0 to 5 with five card or longer
  
• 2suit = 6 to 10 with a 5+ suit, (5 points with KQ or AJ in the suit)
  
• 3suit = Invite with 5+ suit, 11 to 12 if just 5 cards in the suit.
  
• cuebid = 11+ with a 4 card suit, or strong hand without other good bid.

They further state, just to make it clear, that if a bid happens like on this auction and you have a choice between 1M and 2M, that 2M is unchanges, but 1M is now exactly 5/6 to 10 with a four card suit, as you obviously pass with less than that.


Ben

[Free]

Trpltrbl, on Feb 25 2004, 11:54 PM, said:

If 2♠ shows only 5+ and 4+♠, what does 1♠ mean ? 0-4 and 4♠? Again it seems you try more to interfere with your opps then to let your pd know what you have.

Mike 

Ofcourse you have to jam opps bidding. Your partner passed already, so he won't have very much... Give me the advantage of bidding 1♠ with a hand with 6-9HCP, plz! The bidding will go as follows:

pass - pass - [space]1D [space]- Dbl
 1H [space][space]- [space]1S [space]- Dbl [space]- 2S
 3H [space][space]- ...

and opps will find their 3♥ contract. Bidding 2♠ immediately is just better imo, let them find their 5-3 fit ♥... You have the master suit, take advantage of it!!!

Yes, 1♠ is weak.

Bidding 2♠ is more like bidding what you think you can make when partner has what he promisses. The Doubler has shown his hand pretty good, so the responder doesn't necessarily have to show his. If opener has extra values, he can still continue and invite.

[Cascade]

Cascade, on Feb 24 2004, 08:00 PM, said:

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ KJ62 ♥ Q87 ♦ KT3 ♣ KQ9

      Pass  Pass  1♦
?

In a small six-table Topflight tournament five players doubled in this seat.

At the sixth table there was no 1♦ opening.

Wayne

[WGF_Flame]

This is why i dont like imp, mp is a clear D.
I will pass this hand, it tends to be 16 and sometimes 17 total trumps, with 5 card spade and short in dimond (or heart) partner would bid 3sp. my soft holdings in heart and dimond will make this better for defence (take about a trick off the TT).